Wikipedia:Peer review/Burger's Daughter/archive1

Burger's Daughter
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because it is currently a GA, and I've since expanded it and would like to take it to FAC. I'd appreciate it if anyone has any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks, —Bruce1eetalk 15:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Victoria (talk) 01:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Lead:
 * I'm curious why this is defined as a historical novel because it's apparently not set in a period far removed from when it was written, which is typically the case for historical fiction. Also, I may have missed it, or not found it yet, but it doesn't seem to be defined as such anywhere except the lead.
 * You're right, the novel was written only a few years after the events in the book, and "historical novel" is not mentioned in the body of the article. But I did find two sources that classify it as an historical novel: this book ("Other representative examples of African historical novels include Nadine Gordimer's intense engagement with the history of apartheid in South Africa in works such as Burger's Daughter and A Sport of Nature"); and this journal ("Finally, one may describe Burger's Daughter as a retrospective homage to generations past, a kind of historical novel without the fancy-dress apparatus and worked-up documentary cast that often characterizes such work"). Do you think these sources are enough to call it an historical novel? —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's good. Should probably be mentioned somewhere in the body too. Victoria (talk)
 * I'll added it to the new "style and genre" section. —Bruce1eetalk 06:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Consider mentioning the Nobel prize the lead.
 * Done. —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Plot summary:
 * Consider trimming the summary as much as possible.
 * I'll look at that. —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Plot summaries are difficult to write so please bear with me - I have a few questions:
 * How old is Rosa at the opening of the novel? As written the summary mentions that her mother died a decade earlier but later mentions Rosa was nine when both parents were arrested and she was sent to live elsewhere. The chronology is a bit confusing.
 * The novel opens when Rosa (in flashback) visits her mother in prison when she is 14 (this is not mentioned in the plot summary). In "real-time" the novel starts when she attends of father's treason trial when she is ±23. See also my next comment. —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the novel written as a flashback?
 * Part of it, yes. The flashback scenes include when Rosa (age 14) visits her mother in prison, when she recalls life as a child in the Burgers's house, when her parents are arrested and she is sent away (9). The rest of the novel is in "real-time", when she attends her father's treason trial (±23), her brief time with Conrad, she sells the Burgers's house after her father dies (26), flies to Nice (±27), returns to SA and is arrested (29). —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The summary mentions that Rosa's father was arrested when she was nine, he was imprisoned then? And then mentions that he dies three years later, which would make her about 12, but the next section has her at age 26 selling the family home > again the chronology is a bit confusing.
 * Rosa's parents where arrested, imprisoned and later released several times in her life, including when she was nine. During her mother's last internment she died when Rosa was 14. Her father's last internment was his life-sentence when Rosa was ±23. I hope all this helps. —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I want to re-read this section again. Might be useful to add in the plot summary how old she as the scenes are described. That will help the reader understand that the plot doesn't follow a linear pattern - at least that's my understanding from your explanation. Victoria (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll look at reworking the plot summary for clariy. —Bruce1eetalk 06:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "Realising she needs to be somewhere else" - not sure how to parse this > perhaps trim out?
 * Reworded to "Feeling redundant". —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * "is able to be herself for the first time in her life" - same as above, not sure how to parse > trim out?
 * Removed and copyedited. —Bruce1eetalk 08:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Character list:
 * I'd suggest eliminating it. See Red Badge of Courage and The Sun Also Rises both FA that present the characters in the plot summary. The characters int the list are all mentioned in the summary, so it seems a redundant list.
 * Removed. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Context for the boxes is lacking and the formatting needs a bit of improvement. Text boxes are nice to use to show snippets of text, again see the two articles mentioned above that make use of them, and also "Big Two-Hearted River" that has a snippet of text in the plot summary.
 * Removed. I thought those were nice quotes, but I agree, they are out of context. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Background
 * Gordimer was friends with many of the activist families, including Fischer's, and knew that the children in these families were "politically groomed" for the struggle, and that "the struggle came first" and they came second. > This is a bit of hard sentence to get through, suggest something like: Friends with many of the activist families, including Fischer's, Gordimer knew these families'  children were "politically groomed" for the struggle, and were taught "the struggle came first" and they came second.
 * I've used your suggestion, thanks. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it necessary to link "non-fiction"?
 * Delinked. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The paragraph about Nobel Prize is important and probably should be moved elsewhere out of the background section. To the "Honours and awards" section maybe?
 * Moved to "Honours and awards" section as suggested. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * MOS:
 * It's not necessary to use square brackets for ellipsis - see MOS:ELLIPSIS
 * Removed. —Bruce1eetalk 08:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "Publication and banning"
 * "a decision was made" > do the sources explain who made the decision the have the book published in England? If so, to avoid the passive tense and to give more information, might not be a bad idea to add here.
 * I assume it was either Gordimer or her publishers, but it's not mentioned in any of the sources I've found. —Bruce1eetalk 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Some repetition: She did, however followed closely by, But she did describe
 * Fixed. —Bruce1eetalk 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * in the book she had published a pamphlet written and distributed by students in the 1976 Soweto uprising > this is a bit confusing. Did the book contain an actual pamphlet? or did the book contain a description of a fictional pamphlet?
 * The book contains a copy of the actual pamphlet written by students in the 1976 Soweto uprising. —Bruce1eetalk 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I'd copyedit it and essentially use the wording you've provided above for clarity. Victoria (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll do that. —Bruce1eetalk 06:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Do we know who smuggled the book to Mandela?
 * I've seen no mention of this person in any of the sources I've looked at. —Bruce1eetalk 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * try to avoid overuse of however
 * Fixed. —Bruce1eetalk 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "What Happened … "
 * What Happened to Burger's Daughter has two essays by Gordimer documenting the publication history and fate of Burger's Daughter, and responding to Publications Control Board's reasons for banning the book, and one essay by University of the Witwatersrand law professor John Dugard examining censorship in South Africa within the country's legal framework. > a long snaky sentence; try splitting up maybe
 * I've split the sentence. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Themes
 * Academic Abdul R. JanMohamed > is he a professor of literature? If so, perhaps add a bit more information
 * I've added his title with a citation. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Many of Gordimer's works have explored the impact of apartheid on individuals in South Africa,[8] and journalist and novelist George Packer writes that in Burger's Daughter a theme present in several of her novels is that of racially divided societies in which well-meaning whites unexpectedly encounter a side of black life they did not know about > another long sentence that could do with splitting or rewriting
 * I've split the sentence. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Packer finds that another theme in Burger's Daughter that occurs in several of her novels is that of ordinary people living in oppressive regimes being forced into making choices. > I think this is an example of a sentence that can be tightened a bit, something like, According to Packer, another theme is the choices ordinary people who live in oppressive regimes are forced to make - a common theme in her novels. (Not great, but something like that)
 * I've used your suggestion (slightly reworded), thanks. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Turgeon and literary critic Carli Coetzee explain that when Rosa realises that whites are not always welcome in anti-apartheid liberation movements,[8] she makes the difficult decision of turning her back on all that her father worked for and leaving the country > this needs a bit of rewriting, something like: Turgeon and literary critic Carli Coetzee explain that upon her realization that whites are not always welcome in the anti-apartheid liberation movements,[8] she repudiates her father's struggle and leaves the country.
 * I've used your suggestion, thanks. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * takes you inside each character's head > can this be reworded?
 * Replaced with "lets you experience the novel's characters from the inside" – I don't know if that's better. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Reception
 * Maybe instead of jumping in with a quote, try, if possible, to introduce the section with a topic sentence. Something along the line of, "The novel received good reviews" (this is simplified ...)
 * I've added a brief introduction – I hope that's enough. —Bruce1eetalk 06:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Honours and awards:
 * Happy to see the Nobel Prize there. It fleshes out the section a bit.


 * Images:
 * Although File:NadineGordimer Burger'sDaughter inscribed.jpg has a FUR, don't be surprised to be challenged about images if you take this to FAC. The lead image of the book cover is non-free and (I think) generally only a single non-free image is allowed. But I'm not an expert on images, and could be wrong.
 * I hope an exception will be made here. This image is of historical significance and it's content is discussed in the body of the article. —Bruce1eetalk 06:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I hope it will too. It's a fascinating image. Victoria (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * General comments re organization
 * I haven't had time yet to look at all of your replies above, but am wondering if perhaps it's worth considering splitting out a section about style and genre. There you could add the information about the historical novel (and, yes, I'd suspected it was something along the lines of what you've explained). The section could also explain the literary devices Gordimer used - which seem to be important: the use of flashback, or limited flashback, the use of internal monologue and external narrator, etc. I think also such a section would be a fine place to add a text box showing an example of the style. Have a look at True at First Light for a genre section, and Red Badge of Courage for a style and genre section. This might require moving things around a bit, but I think it would improve the article.
 * I'll have a look at that, although this could take a few days, and will probably involve having to source additional material. But thanks for the suggestion. —Bruce1eetalk 06:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about time, and it's only a suggestion. Wouldn't have to be done during the peer review either. I suggested because the questions you've answered here, about flashbacks for instance, should probably be addressed somehow in the text. Victoria (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

More later. Victoria (talk) 00:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your review so far, and for your copyedits. I'm busy at the moment, but I'll respond to your questions/suggestions over the next few days. —Bruce1eetalk 06:55, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No rush! I've only read about half of it so far, so more to come. Victoria (talk) 19:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've responded to all the issues you raised. I'll keep looking for the missing info you requested. —Bruce1eetalk 13:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. I'll be back later to look over your comment. Just popping in quickly to finish up. Victoria (talk) 16:21, 3 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I'm done. It's looking better already and I've learned a lot from this. Good luck with it. I'll keep it on my watch. Victoria (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review and for all your advice and suggestions, I really appreciate it. —Bruce1eetalk 06:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)