Wikipedia:Peer review/Car costs/archive1

Car costs
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I found this issue very interesting. I've been reading in different sources the automobile costs subject for a long time, and I tried to contribute to bring to wikipedia a comprehensive, neutral and well-written article about this subject.

I'd like to know what can be improoved on this article.

Thanks, João Pimentel Ferreira 11:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comments by Doncram
 * I haven't done a Peer Review for a long time. Sorry my comments are a bit random.
 * I very much like the topic and a lot of the content. It's a useful, valid topic for Wikipedia, because of its importance to consumers, its decision relevance when choosing amongst possible car purchases, etc.  And consequently its widespread coverage in car-cost calculators online, in news articles including car reviews, in journals and so on.
 * Perhaps the article should be moved/renamed to "Costs of car ownership" which seems to be the most common phrase; Google search on that.  Costs of car ownership in practice includes operating costs.  "Car costs" might imply merely car purchase prices and is not the standard phrase.
 * The "toolbox" automated reports available to the right here seem not helpful for this article right now. One suggests that the lead is too long perhaps.  I notice terms given in the lead emphasizes "Fixed" and "Variable" cost types, while section titles are "Standing" and "Running", instead.  I suggest in the lead just using Standing and Running terms.  Then in a new first sentence or two in each of those sections, explain what those are, partly by describing them as fixed costs -- that don't vary by how much the car is driven -- and variable costs, that do vary.
 * Also the automated report points out, which I did not notice, that usual/required order of later sections should be "See also" before "References" before "External links", rather than as now appears.
 * The Economics of automobile usage (E) article should be more prominently linked, including as a "See also" item. There are links from there and also from Effects of the car on societies article, to here.  This article is properly separate, split away from the others.  When this one is better organized, the treatment at the other articles should be revised (edited down at the E article).
 * This article should be presented upfront as clearly focusing on the costs of car ownership for the car owner/user. As opposed to public/social costs properly considered in the E article.  It can't be said that this is focusing on "out-of-pocket" costs, I don't think, because depreciation is not out-of-pocket each year?


 * There may be some confusion for readers about depreciation and about the car finance and cost of capital sections, maybe. Best to avoid requiring too much of the average reader.  Hmm.  In truth, for a consumer trying to compare lifetime total costs of one car model (say Honda civic regular vs. equivalent Honda civic hybrid), one could properly focus on the expected actual cash outflows (out-of-pocket costs) year-by-year, summarized in a present value calculation that uses an appropriate interest rate.  With car payments (principal and interest) included when they are paid.  Non-cash depreciation is not to be included.  Or, equivalently, one could focus on year-by-year sums of out-of-pocket operating costs plus depreciation in each year.  Present value of those would be the same as before, if what's called economic depreciation(?) is used.  I suggest revising the "Depreciation" section to call it "Purchase and depreciation" maybe.  Then perhaps: "Acquisition costs, including purchase price plus any sales taxes and all upfront fees for delivery and initial registration, comprise a large part of the costs of car ownership.  Acquisition costs may be paid upfront or by installments, typically each month with interest costs added.  The full financial value of the car, initially, is the total acquisition cost.  In each month and year of use, the financial value declines, with depreciation being the term for the amount of decline in a period.  Depreciation reflects the wasting away of value of the asset as it is used over time."  I dunno, am trying to keep it simple.
 * Car repair costs aren't totally unpredictable. They can be highly variable, sure, but on average they can estimated.  If you buy an extended warranty that covers repairs, there is no unpredictability at all.
 * Add a section on variations in car costs by geographical area, e.g. across countries and in the U.S. across states, with some example numbers. E.g. based on this CNN Money article reporting on a BankRate study, perhaps summarize (my words): "According to one 2013 study, costs for U.S. drivers average $3,201, varying from $2,203 (in Oregon) to $4,233 (in Georgia).  There are large differences across states in sales taxes, in insurance, and in average mileage driven."  Hmm, I see now that that source and similar sentence is used in Effects of the car on societies article.  Reports about it and other studies belong here.
 * Good that you cite the U.S. IRS allowance for cost per mile. That's an important, widely used benchmark.  A chart showing what the IRS allowed, over time, would be good to add and there are probably sources covering that.
 * Add a section on electric / hybrid / vs. traditional cars; I've seen such comparisons in news articles, maybe reporting on Consumer Reports studies.  Total lifetime costs of car ownership follow a different pattern for these types (e.g. for hybrids an owner could expect higher upfront costs and lower per-mile operating costs; which type to choose depends on your forecast for future gas prices and for your driving mileage).
 * What about car costs in history / over time? The advent of Model T mass production of cars brought purchase costs down hugely.  I've seen this described in terms of the number of work hours for the average worker, dropping dramatically.  Look for a graph to include on this?
 * Add a section on costs of car ownership for companies, as opposed to individuals. There should be lots of sources on fleet management.  Costs like repairs which are highly variable for an individual car can be very predictable for fleets.  Perhaps here, can note about depreciation there are different possibilities.  Seek a specific example (source needed though) to say something like:  "In U.S. companies typically depreciate cars on a straight-line basis over 5 years for tax purposes", if that is true, perhaps.  For cars, unlike most equipment and other hard assets, the widespread availability of used car value websites may make it possible to measure depreciation specifically for each vehicle, by looking up year-to-year change in value.  Or that could be mentioned in earlier depreciation section instead.
 * I really enjoy the Ivan Illich passage quoted in section now titled "Kinetic speed vs. Virtual speed". Perhaps that section should be retitled "Critical perspectives" or "Alternative perspectives" perhaps, and include Illich's critique but edited down, and also perhaps find other perspectives?  The long quote plus the longish example illustrating a somewhat-off-the-topic concept of the "speed" calculations, seems too much.  It seems too specific and one-sided, like it is "undue coverage" of one view, and Illich's specific terms, for a general encyclopedia article.  What it adds though, is perspective that car ownership vs. using mass transit, as an individual consumption choice, has impacts for the individual such as, per Illich: greater amount of work hours required according to Illich (but what if the fact you have a car enables you to live further away from work in more affordable housing?  or it's required to have a job at all, or it enables you to have a better job?  there is real consumption though) and maybe less exercise as you don't walk/bicycle/etc.  Adding another critical view or two for balance would help.  It can be noted that car ownership costs are greatly affected by public subsidies/taxes; link to E article about whether car ownership should be subsidized vs. mass transit, etc., keeping this article clearly focused on out-of-pocket costs for consumer, in whatever setting created by government.
 * Your main challenges in developing the article are 1) to find and use more reliable sources, 2) cover more subtopics, but also 3) to organize it more clearly. I think the article can be expanded to be longer.  Then a future priority would be to reduce it and tighten up the writing, but leave that until later
 * Again, great job to develop the article thus far! Hope these comments help. -- do  ncr  am  02:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)