Wikipedia:Peer review/Clarence 13X/archive1

Clarence 13X
This peer review discussion has been closed. Clarence 13X was a fascinating character from 1960s Harlem who successfully founded a new religious movement. I'd appreciate a peer review based on the FA criteria (WP:WIAFA). Input on flow and comprehensibility would be particularly appreciated. Trying to balance the discussion of his theology with his life narrative was somewhat difficult. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 04:21, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments - a very interesting read. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "also enjoyed gambling" plus "He often gambled and.." in consecutive paras, probably no need for the reptition.
 * "After an incident that year " later or earlier?
 * "Virginia was then racially segregated, ..." could be read that this happened afterwards as opposed to "At that time, Virginia was racially..."
 * Is the infection with syphilis really relevant or is it there to hint at some level of promiscuity?
 * "He was nicknamed "Pudding"; ..." seems somewhat crowbarred in, especially after talking about him being known the FBI, it seems something of a non sequitur.
 * "unrest occurred owing " reads awkwardly to me. "unrest was caused by"?
 * "concluded that numbers represent specific concepts" not 100% but think that "represented" would read a little smoother.
 * "Some Five Percents supported " previously and subsequently you refer to them as Percenters.
 * "women were "earths" with " you said this before, perhaps a minor rephrase of this section to avoid repeating the "earths" name.
 * You link "birth control" but not "polygamy", I would think most would know the former but perhaps not the latter...
 * Maybe I'm reading it wrong but the arrest etc which you said was in the "same year" as when he was first shot (1964) seems to have been in 1965 according to the Arrest section?
 * "about 60 of his " personal pref but I'd prefer to see "around 60"...
 * "and set $9,500 bail" reads a little odd to me, but I'm British. I would have expected it to say "set his bail at $9,500."
 * "have psychological problems" in the lead you were specific in saying he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. Could be specific here.
 * "While Clarence 13X was in prison" you referred to it as a hospital in the previous paragraph...
 * I think court cases are typically in italics, e.g. R. v. Oakes...
 * Should Urban League be National Urban League?
 * "The city of New York subsequently agreed ..." I see this a lot but what does it mean?
 * "That morning, several people .." -> "Later that morning.."?
 * "Clarence 13X was cremated, and his funeral was held four days after his death" seems to me this is the wrong way round...
 * "pp. 32–35." vs "pp. 37–8." be consistent with number of digits.
 * "pp. 66 & 69." any reason why that isn't a range?
 * Ok, I think I got them all, good comments, thanks. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Good luck at FAC!  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:12, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments: Found some time this morning to give this a read through, per your request. Comments follow.

Lead:
 * Why no infobox?
 * I don't like them very much usually, they work well for politicians and military types, but otherwise I don't usually add them. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you be opposed to my adding one if I have time and can find an appropriate one? I like how they summarize who the person is quickly. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 20:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I wouldn't mind, go ahead. I guess I'm agnostic about it more than anything else. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you noticed by now that I added one. Make any changes you feel need to be made. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The most natural way for me to read the name of the article's subject is "Clarence thirteen-ex", and I suspect that's how it is meant to be, but it occurs to me that it could also be "Clarence one-three-ex" or "Clarence thirteen times" (X being the symbol for multiplication). Wonder if this could be clarified without looking goofy?
 * Interesting, that hadn't occurred to me. I don't recall seeing anything about punctuation, I guess I'll add a bit about NOI naming conventions though. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I like it being a footnote, but I might suggest you move the footnote to the first mention (i.e. in the lead). Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've put it there. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "later known as Clarence 13X and Allah" Might it be appropriate to say something like "better known by his assumed monikers Clarence 13X and Allah" so that it's clear he chose those names for himself?
 * Ok, added. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "It is not known why he left" I think you can drop this. The rest of the sentence implies this, and it can stand on its own.
 * Good point, removed. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "He disagreed with the NOI's teachings about the status of Wallace Fard Muhammad, whom they considered a divine messenger. Clarence 13X argued that Fard could not be divine because he was part white, contradicting the NOI's teaching that God is black." Could we maybe combine this to say "He disagreed with the NOI's teaching that Wallace Fard Muhammad was a divine messenger, because Fard was part white; Clarence 13X argued that this contradicted the NOI's teaching that God is black."
 * Ok, done. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Later in the article, we have "[Clarence 13X] believed that Fard was of partial Caucasian descent". Was there doubt about this? If so, we should note it in the lead as well.
 * I believe that Fard's origins are disputed, but I really don't know too much--and our article on him isn't much help. Knight seems to assume that the reader has more background than I do. I tried to do what I could, hope this works. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it works in the body, but the lead need to more accurately reflect that. Instead of "Fard was of partial Caucasian descent", just use "Fard was not of exclusively African descent". That matches what's in the body. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point, changed. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is Wallace Fard Muhammad referred to concisely as "Fard" instead of "Muhammad"?
 * That's the way he's referred to in his article, I changed to Fard Muhammad here. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fard may well be correct; it just struck me as odd. Might be worth finding out and briefly explaning. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 20:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "took the name Allah to symbolize [divine] status" In light of this statement, it might be worth linking "Allah" somewhere for readers that may not know that is the name of the deity of Islam.
 * Good point, our Allah article is about the word itself. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "They devised numerological teachings about letters and numbers" Can you devise a "numerological teaching" about a letter? Maybe choose a different adjective here.
 * Good catch, they would have nailed me at FAC about that, rephrased. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the use of semicolons to vary sentence structure, but I think it's overdone in the second paragraph of the lead.
 * Fair enough, removed one. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "He was released from custody after a court ruling in 1966." What did the court rule? How did it effect his release?
 * Made a brief note here, might add more detail in body. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This is probably a sufficient level of detail for the lead. Any additional detail should go in the body. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 20:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Early life and Nation of Islam: Founding the Five Percenters: Opposition: Arrest: Cooperation and conflict: Death: Legacy and reception: Again, this is well-written overall, and my quibbles are pretty minor. Probably not a subject I'd have reviewed voluntarily, but a pretty easy review considering the article's length. If you get a chance and wouldn't mind, I've got Constitution Square State Historic Site up for PR. It's kind of a different article for me, too, considering I usually do biographies, but after a weekender trip there a few months back, I got interested in it, and I think it might stand a chance at FAC. See what you think if you have time. Thanks. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 17:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "he witnessed incidents of racism, including a fight between his father and a white man" A fight between two people of different races is not necessarily racism. Do we know anything about the incident and how it was connected to racism?
 * One source describes it as a racially motivated fight, the other doesn't explicitly say. I put it as racism in the article. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's fine now. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "In 1946, he moved to New York City with his mother, where they settled in Harlem." Did his parents divorce? Were they ever married? What prompted their separation and his mother's move to New York?
 * Not sure on this, I don't think the sources say. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * A shame. Would be nice to know, especially about the relationship of his parents (married or not). Keep an eye out for this as you continue to work on the article. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Dora had embraced the group while he was away" This paragraph should lead with this information. It makes the transition from the previous paragraph smoother.
 * Ok, that is a good idea. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Clarence 13X became disillusioned with the organization" Disillusioned kind of implies that he was misled about something. "Disenchanted" might be a more accurate term.
 * Changed. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "His departure has been variously attributed to doubts about the NOI's theology, violations of their moral code, objections to the luxurious lifestyles of their senior leadership, or that he was distrusted by Malcolm X." The last item breaks the parallelism of the sentence. Maybe try "His departure has been variously attributed to doubts about the NOI's theology, violations of their moral code, objections to the luxurious lifestyles of their senior leadership, or Malcolm X's distrust of him." Alternatively, you might break the last part out into its own sentence.
 * Ok, used your suggestion. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "NOI members have offered contradictory accounts of the events that led to Clarence 13X's departure, and whether it was voluntary." This might work better before the preceding sentence.
 * Yes, moved. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "At that time, they sometimes smoked marijuana together, and John 37X regularly used heroin." This kind of seems like a random tidbit until mention of John 37X's imprisonment on drug charges. Later, we also have "he sold and used drugs". I'm not sure you couldn't drop both and just leave that "During [living mathematics'] development, John 37X was imprisoned on firearms charges." Otherwise, I think the integration of the drug use/selling facts could be tighter.
 * Ok, I tightened it up. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that looks better to me. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Comparisons have also been made between his teachings and Gnosticism, Kemetism, and Kabbalah." Who has made these comparisons?
 * Yeah, I probably should state this, bit of a pain to do it though. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It might interrupt the flow a little, but it avoids POV concerns. I think it sounds good the way you have it now. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Five Percenters teach that Clarence 13X was an incarnation of God, and that black men are gods. Followers are thus encouraged to look within themselves in their search for God." There is a shift to the present tense for two sentences here, then back to past tense. I understand that these are probably still teachings of the Five Percenter movement, but the shift in tense within the same paragraph was jarring for me. You might want to look for ways to avoid it.
 * Good catch, tried to fix it. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Much better. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "arguing that pigs were similar to animals that are not eaten, such as rats and dogs" Other animals that are not eaten by whom? My understanding is that some groups of people do eat dogs, at least, and maybe rats too.
 * Good point, he did live in Korea for a while--clarified. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Hip hop mogul Russell Simmons recalls" Why is Russell Simmons qualified to comment? Where does he "recall" his observations from? Did he live near a recruiting post or something?
 * I presume he lived in the area, not sure though. I tried to rephrase it to avoid using his name. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That works. If you can find his connection to the situation, having his name there could spark some interest, but as it was, it raised some important questions that needed answers. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Attendees were given wide freedom to speak in a system that has been compared to Quaker meetings." Again, who is making this comparison? We have to know in order to judge its reliability and accuracy.
 * Checked the source, I guess it was by an academic anthropologist. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "The group initially became known as the "Suns of Almighty God Allah", or the "Blood Brothers"." Why not "Clarence 13X's group was initially known as the "Suns of Almighty God Allah", or the "Blood Brothers"."?
 * Changed. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "they are said to embody his attributes." Whose attributes? Clarence 13X's? God's? I guess they are kind of one in the same to this group, but it is still a little unclear to me.
 * Ok, made it a little more clear. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "The name was drawn from the NOI's claim to be the five percent of the black community who knew and promoted the truth about God; Clarence 13X considered his movement to be the five percent of the NOI which still held to truth and integrity" So, just to check my understanding, they were 5% of the 5%? If so, no action needed. If not, this is the conclusion I came to reading this.
 * Yes, that is what they believed. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Got it. Just wanted to double-check. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "NOI leaders were angry that Clarence 13X taught portions of their doctrine" I would think they would be angry about the differences in their doctrines, not the similarities.
 * I think it was kind of like Scientology in that they only revealed some teachings once you showed you were a confirmed member--and then Clarence started shouting the details on street corners. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Aha! That makes more sense. A good addition to the article. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Dora and his children did not revere him, and hostility quickly developed between core Five Percenters and his sons." I thought he and Dora already separated. Did they reunite? Also, were these children with Dora (which we have heretofor not been told about) or the out-of-wedlock children mentioned earlier?
 * Added that he had sons with Dora, this incident actually involved Willeen. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Good deal. This serves to keep Jowers in the narrative as well, so her appearance later isn't as startling. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "there has been speculation that the shooting was organized by law enforcement or rival Muslim groups" Who is doing this speculating?
 * Gave some explanations. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Much better. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Local papers published sensational coverage" This could be considered POV unless we know for sure that the coverage was deliberately slanted.
 * Ok, found a more neutral term. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's better. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "At his arraignment, around 60 of his followers attended" Maybe just "Approximately 60 of his followers attended his arraignment..."
 * Changed. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "were removed from the court after shouting "Peace"." Was this like a one-time shout in unison or was it repeated like a chant? Maybe it was a disorganized cacophony. It would be nice to know, if the sources say.
 * "Five Percenters resisted Louis Farrakhan's attempts to convert them" Convert them to what?
 * That's right, not everyone knows Louis Farrakhan. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "It took an unusually long time for Clarence 13X's psychiatric results to be processed" Given the next sentence, I'm guessing that "unusually long" was Knight's assessment. It probably needs to be attributed, and I think you can probably combine this sentence and the next one to do that effectively.
 * Good point, done. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "converting one young white man" Is this the "white follower" mentioned in the lead? Is he the only white Five Percenter that we know of? If not, is he at least Clarence 13X's first white follower? If so, that probably deserves note.
 * As best I can tell, he's the only white follower to openly associate with Clarence, finding it hard to get a clear statement in the sources about it. Tried to clarify a bit. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Good enough. We can't say what the sources don't say. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Prompted in part by concerns voiced by the NYPD" Has this abbreviation been spelled out before?
 * No, I hadn't noticed that. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "The city of New York subsequently agreed to help Clarence 13X publish a book of Five Percenter teachings and portions of the Quran." Interesting that he wanted to publish portions of the Quran, but he no longer identified as Muslim. Any idea why?
 * That is counter-intuitive, I'm not sure there's a clear reason why in the source. I believe his objection to "Islam" was that it means "submission", and as Allah he didn't have to submit to anyone. The group was/is syncretist at heart though, so it's not uncommon for them to borrow from other groups to an extent. I put a bit about that next to his not identifying as Muslim. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, we can't say what the sources don't. I didn't expect there to be much about this, but left this comment to prompt you to look anyway, just to be sure. It's fine. I suspect your explanation is pretty close to right. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Willieen Jowers recalled that Clarence 13X admitted that his previous teachings about racial hatred were wrong around this time." What role has Jowers been playing all this time? I kind of assumed she faded out of the picture after the birth of her second child.
 * "Gloria Steinem published an article about Clarence 13X in New York." Maybe specify New York magazine. Otherwise, we don't know if it's a book, newspaper, or what.
 * Ok, hope this works. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I had in mind. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "He traveled to Dora's house to rest" OK, all this talk about Dora with no last name is curious. If she was that big of a deal in his life, surely someone knows her last name, right?
 * Turns out she did take his last name. Added a bit more about her. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This does help flesh things out a bit. Good deal. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Lindsay deemed Clarence 13X as "the Al Sharpton of his day" Need to link Al Sharpton.
 * Tried to rephrase to avoid linking inside a quote, hope it's not too wordy now. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never seen linking within a quote to be that big of a deal, but I know, strictly speaking, we aren't supposed to. What you've done sounds fine to me. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)