Wikipedia:Peer review/David Kelly (weapons expert)/archive1

David Kelly (weapons expert)


An article I expanded some time ago that has nicely matured in the last couple of years. Dr K deserves a decent, honest consideration as a decent, honest man. The aim is an FAC, so any and all comments with that in mind are welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from SNUGGUMS
Here's some things to start with:
 * Are any free images of this guy available? If not, then File:David Kelly 2000s.jpg will do.
 * Not that I can find, sadly. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * With no credible evidence to suggest otherwise, I'll assume good faith that the "own work" claims for File:Linacre Main Enterence.jpg, File:Hans Blix in 2015-2.jpg, File:Andrew Gilligan.jpg, and File:Longworth StMary SE3 (cropped).jpg are accurate.
 * File:View towards Gruinard Island - geograph.org.uk - 836894.jpg, File:Stepnagorsk Corona Composite.jpg, File:Susan Watts.jpg, File:Alastair Campbell - Chatham House 2012 crop.jpg, File:Tony Blair 2010 (cropped).jpg, File:Wood, on Harrowdown Hill - geograph.org.uk - 1439340.jpg, and File:Four witnesses from the Hutton Inquiry.png are appropriately licensed.
 * Not sure how beneficial it is to have File:WeaponsInspector.JPG, File:Powell UN Iraq presentation, alleged Mobile Production Facilities.jpg, or File:Aerial view of Harrowdown Hill, Oxon.jpg (especially when we've already got a closer view within the woods for the lattermost)
 * I've taken out the weapons inspector. I've left the other two in for now. I'll give it some thought - and particularly if people raise the issue at FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Maybe I missed something, but I can't seem to find anything in the either of the given file sources that shows File:Official portrait of Lord Chidgey crop 1.jpg :/
 * OK, I've found an archived version of the page here, so swapped the sources in Commons. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * How exactly did you get the pin drops for File:Location of David Kelly's home and where his body was found.jpg? The map it links to doesn't show these.
 * These were from the Sunday Times (I've put the reference at the end of the caption) - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "Notes" are a separate entity from "References", so they shouldn't be lumped under the same section as them.
 * I've seen the combined and separated (both ordinarily and at FA), so I'll hold off on this unless it's raised at FAC, if you don't mind? - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Unless you end up using the sources under "Further reading" within article text, I don't see any point in listing those.
 * OK, I've taken out the articles, but left the viedo information. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Best of luck getting the page to FA! SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:35, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks SNUGGUMS - much appreciated! Cheers. - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from HAL
I, for one, am glad to see you back. Here are some things that jump out:
 * The paragraphs of the lead seem to be a little unbalanced. I would try to trim down the the first paragraph to the kernel, the core, and move some of the specifics to the second or third paragraph.
 * I'll mull this one over. The opening para is pared down quite a lot while still making sense, but I'll have another look at it in a few days to read it with a fresh pairs of eyes. - SchroCat (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, now reworked a little. This should work a little better. - SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Pasechnik is referred to as "the senior Soviet biologist and bioweapons developer". "The" implies that he was the best the Soviets had. Is that true? Should it be changed to just "a" or could his name be moved after his job title?
 * Yes, he was the most senior. In British English it's a definite article that we use, rather than the indefinite. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "in what was then called Leningrad (now Saint Petersburg)" --> "in Leningrad (now Saint Petersburg)" Redundant. The "now" implies that the name is changed.
 * Yep - changed


 * "The team faced obstruction by the Russians" passive voice.
 * Yep, tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "official reports of the visit" should that be a singular "report"?
 * There was more than one official report (I've clarified it as "two official reports"). - SchroCat (talk) 17:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "Weapons of Mass Destruction" shouldn't be capitalized.
 * Removed - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "UN" --> I know it's very basic, but I think we should first spell out "United Nations (UN)"
 * No, that's one of the MOS:ACRO1STUSE exemptions to spelling out. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "discussed the use of WMD" Should that be "WMDs"?
 * A moot point. The correct plural would be "Weapons of mass destruction", and the WMD article seems to favour that (although there are a couple of "WMDs" in there too). I'll see what FAC commentators say (or other PR attendees). - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I feel as though the first words of the bullet points should be capitalized
 * Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry - gone back on this while dealing with one of your points below. A couple of reasons: firstly it's a direct quote, so we've retained the original; and secondly because these are all part of a longer sentence in the original (and here), so would follow sentence capitalisation. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Blocked off quotes are used a but too frequently. I would try to condense and integrate at least some into the body.
 * I've merged one into the text and I'll have a look at the others. What there is are either Kelly's own words, and/or important points where the wording is key, but I'll go over again and see if there are any more. - SchroCat (talk) 17:02, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Kelly is more than deserving of an FA - it's some sketchy stuff. I'll drop some more comments later. ~ HAL  333  03:08, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the current "Notes and references". That's actually my preference on bios.
 * Thank you both. I’ll deal with these fully when I’m back in the UK in a couple of days. - SchroCat (talk) 12:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , thank you for these comments: do you have any more? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

More comments from HAL

 * Regarding the two bullet points, what's the difference between "Military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons..." and "Command and control arrangements in place to use chemical and biological weapons"? If there isn't a substantial difference, I might combine the two bullet points into a single sentence integrated with the body.
 * These are different points (and are both quotes from the report): one is about the plans to use it on its own population, one is the command structure that linked it directly to Saddam. - SchroCat (talk) 11:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "none of them referred to the 45-minute claim" What's the significance of this? I'm a bit confused
 * I've clarified slightly on this. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "UNSCOM inspectors were readmitted to the country and information was provided on the Iraqi WMD programme" (I assume its the Iraqis providing this info?) As it is, a comma is needed after "country" as it is followed by an independent clause. However, I think "were readmitted to the country and were provided information on the Iraqi WMD programme" might work better or some other rewording.
 * OK - swapped out - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I would link VX (nerve agent)
 * It’s Anthrax VX, which isn’t the same as VX (as far as I am aware) - I’ll need to do a bit of digging on that particular point though. SchroCat (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Should Newsnight be italicized?
 * Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Should "At 7:32 am" use "a.m."? I'm not sure myself...
 * Either are fine, as long as it’s consistent (according to MOS:TIME) - SchroCat (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Disregard. I misread. ~ HAL  333  19:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Disregard. I misread. ~ HAL  333  19:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * It may be helpful to link Downing Street at its first use
 * Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I would mention MacKinlay's party, as is done with the other MPs
 * Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Could the red and blue dots on the "Key points in the life of David Kelly" map key be blown up a bit? In fact, it's kind of hard to see anything on that map without zooming in on it.
 * That was the limit of my graphic design abilities, so I've asked the graphics lab for a better version. - SchroCat (talk) 11:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * ...up to 29 tablets of co-proxamol, an analgesic drug, then cut his left wrist, severing his ulnar artery, with a pruning knife... That's kind of choppy
 * It is: now reworked. SchroCat (talk) 11:19, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * It was subsequently established that neither the knife nor the blister packs showed Kelly's fingerprints on their surfaces I assume it wasn't established before his death... I would remove "subsequently" and maybe add the date that this was determined and who determined it if possible
 * Reworded to avoid "subsequently". It's not clear on the who and when questions: one presumes as part of the police investigation, but that isn't important as much as the information itself is. - SchroCat (talk) 11:33, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "the pathologist called to the scene, Nicholas Hunt" Was he the coroner? That might be more accurate. If not, who called the pathologist in?
 * No, he was the pathologist, not the coroner. In the UK a pathologist is a medical professional who examines the body to establish the medical cause of death. The coroner is a judicial position who listens to all the evidence surrounding a death - including the evidence from the pathologist - to judge where a death is natural or suspicious. - SchroCat (talk) 11:18, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * If it doesn't interrupt the flow, I might incorporate note q into the body.
 * I think it interrupts it a bit too much. The others who demurred are also briefly covered, so it was a question of balance as much as anything else. Too much of the he-said-she-said back and forth of accusation and refutation would make the paragraph a bit flabby to read. - SchroCat (talk) 12:18, 28 December 2022 (UTC)


 * "Kelly's remains were exhumed in June 2017" Were they moved elsewhere? Cremated?
 * I just saw Wehwalt's comment on this - I found a Guardian source that says Kelly was reportedly cremated. ~ HAL  333  19:25, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added "reportedly cremated", although I think this may be guesswork by the media. There is no reliable source that confirms this one way or the other, and the family have remained tight-lipped on the point (quite rightly, in my opinion!) The Baháʼí faith strongly discourages cremation (although they don't ban it), which also makes it a bit less likely. - SchroCat (talk) 12:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

That's all I got. I look forward to seeing this as a FAC in the near future. Cheers, ~ HAL  333  17:58, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Done the easy ones - I’ll go over the remainder shortly. Thanks for the comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Wehwalt

 * Not many comments.
 * It's a bit difficult to follow the first paragraph beyond the first sentence, it seems a bit in medias res. Can we start with Kelly's involvement in the report and build from there?
 * "In 1971 he received his doctorate in microbiology for his thesis ..." I don't know how it is in Britain, but in the US, doctoral theses say "in partial fulfillment of the requirements" for the degree. This makes it sound like it was the only requirement.
 * Do we need to have the dates of start and finish of the Iraq war twice?
 * "Mangold states that "most likely explanation is that he learned from a well-meaning friend at the Ministry of Defence that the BBC had tape-recorded evidence which, when published, would show that he had indeed said the things to Susan Watts that he had formally denied saying"." Should there be a "the" after the "that" before the quotation?
 * "The former leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, and the former Liberal Democrat MP, Norman Baker, both think Kelly was murdered.[173]" I might change this to the past tense to future-proof it, both are getting on in years, as are we all, alas.
 * "Kelly's remains were exhumed in June 2017." And then what?
 * It's not explained in any of the sources, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 12:50, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems good. Welcome back.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Cheers - all sorted (one of them by a third party) except the lead, which I'll work on prior to FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 12:50, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley
On the prose, every time I boggled at a spelling I found the OED was with you. I am not going into the capitalisation of job titles (the (p/P)resident of the United States, the British (p/P)rime (m/Minister), as that way madness lies. As to the proportions of the article I looked long and hard and I think it is right that after a concise – but sufficient – canter through his early years, the bulk of the article is about the Iraq inspection, the dodgy dossier, the BBC and Kelly’s death. I think the article is ready for FAC Please ping me when you get to there. (And perhaps give us a less doom-laden article next time?)  Tim riley  talk   22:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

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