Wikipedia:Peer review/Detroit, Michigan/archive1

Detroit, Michigan
This article has gone through a lot of cleanup and modification, both before and after Super Bowl XL. At the moment, the article seems ready for FA, though I am placing it here first to see what more is needed. PentawingTalk 04:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:WIAFA states that the images should have acceptable copyright status. However, Image:Detroit flag.png's license is not compatible with the GFDL, and deletion of that image is imminent. Find a way to replace that image. — THIS IS M ESSED [[Image:R with umlaut.png]] OCKER (TALK) 16:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Jtmichcock 22:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I created another flag image and reinserted back into the article. PentawingTalk 01:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, I somehow managed to miss all the work that has been going on with this article. Great work to rescue such a mess. I take it you've already checked against other city FA's to make sure it covers broadly the right topics. But each subsection needs to be prioritized in what it covers too. The economy section gives a relatively very large amount of space to green autos when the big 3 have pretty much dragged their heels with that and have done little to none of the work. Most (all?) hybrid tech is licensed from foreign manufacturers and they have steadily opposed higher mpg standards and closing the loophole allowing SUVs to get the more lax truck emmissions standards. More space should be given to the decline of manufacturing and the woes of the auto industry. GM has been steadily losing market share and both Ford and GM's bond ratings have been plunging, Delphi and Visteon's problems, etc. The economy section could also stand to cover the state of the neighborhoods where most are in very poor shape but there are still pockets of fancy areas like Indian village, etc. The gov section could note the very high rate of property taxes but the consistent city budget problems and mismanagement. Along with covering how much of a mess the city is, you could cover some on the rebirth along the waterfront and the casinos. Also the high number of derelict buildings and large number of properties that owe back taxes because they can't keep track of them. Illich owes property taxes he still hasn't bothered to pay. The sports could note how bad the Lions have always been and a little bit about Hocketown and the prominence of the Wings. The schools section fails to note that just how bad the public schools are considered, and that I think all of the Catholic high schools have now moved out of the city. Wayne State's med school is among the largest by number of students in the country if not the largest (oops it does say that later). You could cut the formula one racing out of the sports since it's not there anymore unless it was a really big deal at the time and is worth mentioning for that. The Free Press marathon is billed as the only marathon to cross international borders, because I believe other smaller races do. And it's kind of a marketing gimmick anyway. The part in Windsor is very short. Could be worth noting the DMC is a level one regional trauma center and expanding the hospital bit some. So each section needs a little polishing like that. Finally once everything else is balanced, the lead needs a little work for POV balance, and you could even stand to note how bad the city's reputation is, it usually gets ranked among the worst. So that's a lot, but there's obviously been so much good work so far, it might as well be great. I'll follow this, but also let me know if you want another final review before FAC. - Taxman Talk 13:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * A search of the Archdiocese website finds U of D Jesuit High School and Loyola High School still listed as in Detroit (along with 15 other schools from elementary level to colleges). Rmhermen 06:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it the article I read was about plans to close the last Catholic HS's, so that could either change, have changed, or be in the works. You should be able to find it in Free Press covg. - Taxman Talk 07:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Basic review: 1) The article needs to be summarised as per summary style. Sections in the article reads more like a list converted to prose. The entire list of schools/radio stations etc. can be moved to a dedicated list article. 2) the temperature table looks ugly. Please remove/move  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have gone through the article and taken care of your immediate suggestions (removing the climate table, tackling the "list to prose" in the schools and radio sections). However, can you please be more specific as to which sections need to be summarized further, and if there are other "list to prose" areas that have yet to be addressed? Thanks. PentawingTalk 19:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Economy and Crime sections. Also in lower resolutions the images look all bunched up. Please reduce the images. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I went over the economy and crime sections and did some copyediting. Is there anything more that needs to be done? PentawingTalk 23:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

A few things. --nixie 05:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Is the TIME cover essential? It shouldn't be there unless its linked into the text in a meaningful way.
 * 2) There doesn't seem much point breaking education into two sections, it just increases the length of the TOC and the two things are clearly related. The order of information seems a bit odd in the primary school section.
 * 3) Again, the break up of demographics into overview and population seems superfilious as both sections are clearly discussing the same thing. Historical information should probably be reduced, or made apparent in the history section.
 * 4) Economy seems to be lacking information on unemployment rates, and information on economic activites in the city outside the automotive industry.
 * 5) I'm not sure about inclusion of the crime stats in the current form, they really don't mean much unless they are compared to a national average.
 * 6) Historic population information would be more informative as a graph.
 * Regarding your suggestions:
 * TIME cover removed.
 * Education section merged and rearranged.
 * The two demographics sections are fairly long, each with a different emphasis (the overview focuses on general population descriptions while the population section focuses on statistics). Currently, I can't really see a reason to completely merge the two sections.
 * Done.
 * Comparison to U.S. averages included.
 * I am not sure about making the historic population information a graph. Not only has the table become a standard fixture in U.S. city articles, but a graph makes it more difficult to update information as they change (unless someone comes up with a better idea such as creating a Javascript/PHP script that translates statistical information to graph form without having someone try to find hard statistical data before creating the graph).
 * PentawingTalk 23:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree on the necessity of the population list, it is very hard for the reader to take in the information in that format. A graph - which is immediately informative, would be good for at least another 4 years. I have had a go at merging the two sections. The demographics section says that more than 1 million black people live in the area, but there are less than 1 million people in the city - something here needs to be clarified.--nixie 04:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I looked over the population statistics. The article does mention that while there are more than 1 million blacks in the region, about 80% of them live within Detroit (which would make sense, since 81% of 951,000 is about 770,000, which is close to 800,000). Hence, I don't see a problem with population statistics. As for the graphs, there might be a possibility of creating one, though I have to look into it further (perhaps using a hybrid statistics table combined with a graph produced in Excel?). This would at least provide some hard numbers to work with for the next iteration. PentawingTalk 04:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It should proably say which region the statistic is refering to - it's a bit confusing.--nixie 04:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I clarified the wording a bit. Does that work? PentawingTalk 05:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Much more clear, thanks.--nixie 05:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok good improvements. 1) I still really think the auto racing should be removed from the sports section unless it is seriously important. That would make room for more mention of the Lions awful streak (didn't they just set a record for the worst win-loss?), and the Pistons doing very well. I think those impact the city enough to warrant inclusion, though the Pistons are outside the city of course. 2) In the history paragraph starting "Detroit has endured..." there is an unfortunate proximity of race with the decline, almost implying that caused it. The text doesn't say that, but the placement in the same paragraph seems to. I don't have a handy solution, but that reads poorly. 3) The fiscal mismanagement of the city still needs a little more space I think. You'd have to do some more digging, but last I read they still don't even have a handle on all the properties owe taxes, but of the ones they do know there is a large amount owed. I can't think of the other important metrics, but the financial scandals and the general innefectuallness of the city council should appear in some good sources. 4) It looks quite good with some of these last fixes especially, though I couldn't offer enthusiastic support at FAC without some additional higher quality sources. Books, government studies, etc. - Taxman Talk 15:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. In terms of the Grand Prix, Detroit is one of the few US cities that has had a sanctioned race.  From a historical perspective, that's notable.  I would just as soon not discuss the Lions misfortune nor the Piston's success - the reason being the roller coaster rides that has been the Tigers (84 World Champs) and Red Wings (aka "Dead Wings" in the same year).  We need to have a measure of stability to the article to get past the FAC process.  The Tigers are "not sucking" so far this year - who knows?  Such is sports.
 * The proximity of racial tensions with the overall decline in the city exists. I think you agree we are not implying the two are directly linked, but we realistically can't disengage the two elements.  There's an NPOV problem that we are constantly trying to avoid and present a "just the facts" synopsis.
 * As to fiscal management of the City, this was discussed a bit when the decision was made to do a daughter article to the Government section. Public financing, including property taxes, bond issues, sinking fund, et cetera, can get a little complex.  Instead, there was a deliberate decision to move those matters to the subarticle and spend a little more time on the city vs. suburbs problems that have bogged down development (e.g., two separate bus systems).
 * I think the studies we have are quite good. I know I have done inserts from various Federal agencies.  The majority, however, are press reports that translate the many data sources into English and are much more likely to be read.
 * Thanks for reviewing. I do hope you you can give some feedback to the above.  Jtmichcock 18:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If you've checked and considered all those, then it's probably about right. Just be careful that when you move material to daughter articles what is left is a proper summary of the material. I think those things you've mentioned are at least as important as the city vs suburbs. It doesn't need much, just a little more. I know book sources are a pain to get and I don't mean to discount the work you guys have done on this, it is really much much better, but I do think they are important. - Taxman Talk 01:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Pentawing had asked me for more comments, so I'm responding to that and what else I see. The fiscal mismanagement I'm referring to has been in the last 5-10 years so it may not be in any books yet. The receivorship bit almost covers it, it would just be nice for a bit more. One or two sentences or so. The only sources for that may be news articles and or government reports if there are any. And yes keeping the article from being too long while covering so much info is hard, just keep working on prioritizing. If you're looking for places to cut, the sports and transportation sections are probably the best ones to work on. One thing I see is the economy section focuses too much on environmental issues almost stating that as the reason for the auto industry's decline. There's not much evidence Americans cared much about fuel economy until very recently and the big three's market shares have been dropping for decades. GM's used to be 50% and it's less than 22% now I think. It's probably they just can't get their costs down as fast and make less profit on many vehicles. So a lot of (but not all) the part focusing on their fuel economy etc, could be excised to shorten that section and be replaced with a couple sentences on market share/costs. Last, the IPA pronunciation seems off. I can't see where an open-mid back rounded vowel is in there, but then again, I'm not a linguist. The language ref desk would be a good place to ask. Also instead of /ɪ/ many people pronounce the first vowel as /i/ or /i:/. Think Deeeetroit basketball, but less stressed. :). - Taxman Talk 01:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I made some revisions per your suggestions. In terms of the pronounciation, I don't hear the strong E in casual conversations.  It's only when people are emphasising the name that you get the long "Deee,"   As in "I'm going to Dee-troit!"  Midwesterners often omit or soften a lot of vowels (such as "T'rono," that big city in Can-da), so this is in line with what's expected. Jtmichcock 23:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)