Wikipedia:Peer review/Ely, Cambridgeshire/archive1

===Ely, Cambridgeshire=== This peer review discussion has been closed. We have listed this article for peer review as a first step in a process that started about one month ago at Ely article improvements. Following a successful review, we intend to submit the article to the WP:GAN process then hopefully as a WP:FAC. In the meantime, we accept that the article needs further work and we are therefore looking for advice on how to proceed. We found the lead (lede) most difficult. We will respect any help reviewers are able to offer in re-writing this lead. We commit to working quickly through all issues raised by reviewers.

Thank you in advance, Senra (Talk) 21:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It is still open and located at Peer review/Ely, Cambridgeshire/archive1. Comments by Rod. Senra has asked me to take a look at this article. Although I have visited I don't know the city well so can't comment on comprehensiveness, therefore a few comments based on WP:UKCITIES etc.

Lead


 * The first paragraph focuses on local geography, which may be significant to the city - but this isn't made explicit. I tend to right about the place itself in the opening para & then look at the surrounding area. Perhaps this could be combined with the final paragraph where it deals with SSSIs? Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The final sentence could be reworded to reduce the use of brackets and perhaps change the phrase "peat (fuel) farming" as I wouldn't say anyone farms peat. Agreed but with tongue in cheek see peat farming :) --Senra (Talk) 16:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see in the roads section why Akeman Street isn't wikilinked, but perhaps this could be clarified in the lead Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could something about Economy, Governance, Culture, Sport, education etc be included to more fully summarise the article per WP:LEAD?
 * Agreed --Senra (Talk) 16:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In the infobox I would spell out the abbreviation ECDC in full. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Structure
 * Is there any reason why Demography comes higher in the article order than suggested in WP:UKCITIES? Demography was correct; I think you mean Governance which I changed to Government so Agreed  --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

History
 * Roswell Pits could be wikilinked. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Kimmeridge Clay is wikilinked in this section but not in the lead Agreed  --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What is Thomas Parson's Charity & why is it significant? Any involvement in the Civil war?
 * Stet I believe that the charities existence since 1445 and the fact that it still exists today is notable enough for its inclusion so for now, stet --Senra (Talk) 15:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I would move the workhouses and Cromwell down for chronological order Agreed  --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In the caption of the map there seems to be a space missing in "SinceBentham's time". This sentence should probably end with a full stop. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The date 1816 occurs twice in the sentence "The Ely and Littleport riots 1816 occurred between 22 and 24 May 1816" Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How is the great of "great cathedral" defined? perhaps this restoration is during the Victorian era as several cathedrals were restored before this date. Agreed My error as the source said thoroughly not fully. I added full reference to source and quoted source too so Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't include "Historical documents...." as this is really about sources - perhaps external links? Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not an English grammar expert (and would encourage recruiting one) but some of the short sentences and paragraphs in this section could perhaps be expanded a little to help clarify significance.
 * Agreed Me not grammar, expert&mdash;neither but, Malleus; had passed on so, I guess bad construction's is fixed? --Senra (Talk) 15:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Modern times doesn't seem that modern to me anything from 20th century? eg RAF stations mentioned in Notable people
 * The claim of 2nd smallest city is false see Wells. Agreed changed to "... one of the smallest ..." although the claim i was sourced :) --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Climate
 * What does NIAB mean/stand for? Agreed NAIB removed to note --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Economy
 * The first paragraph needs to be turned into prose - it makes no sense to me currently
 * Agreed --Senra (Talk) 15:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand the name Babylon-ware being related to the re-routing of the river
 * Agreed by Ning-ning, thank you --Senra (Talk) 15:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Governance
 * "for which" or "to which"? Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree a citation is needed for the church, middle class & Tory-Liberal marginal claims.
 * Stet for now as this topic is beyond me. I have in fact added some prose on the Liberty of Ely but the modern politics is difficult. I have recruited others to look at this. I inherited all the modern governance prose and feel that it should be re-worked as fact. I have carried out searches for the election results without success so far. stet for now --Senra (Talk) 15:36, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Culture
 * I wouldn't include "33rd year", 26th year, 84 years etc. - as these will go out of date quickly. If you want to include the event was founded/first held fine but you can leave the reader to work out how many years it has been going if they want to. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would move the picture to the right (because of section breaks) & move the canon to the left in the next section. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Landmarks
 * Palace Green is mentioned, and the Bishop's Palace is mentioned in the picture caption but I can't see anything else about this in the article. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 23:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Would Ely Castle be worthy of mention in the history section?
 * Stet for now. I am not sure about this. I might remove it altogether. It is not archaeologically clear when, by whom and for what purpose it was built. The Ely Castle article says it was built in 1070 by William I as a defence against [the folk-hero,] Hereward the Wake. The statements in that un-sourced article are not supported by our sources (VCH & Pevsner) in this Ely article. Further source farming is required here&mdash;we should start by seeing what the Cambridgeshire Heritage Environment Record (CHER) has to say when I get their database dump within the next week (2 sq mi of Ely:Pre-history through 19th century) --Senra (Talk) 23:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed Added castle and Hereward to history section. Needs to go in lead but that can wait as other stuff needs to go in lead too  --Senra (Talk) 12:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what "For example" is an example of Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Demography
 * Could some text be added explaining the table?
 * This draft report contains historical population figures of Ely going back to the time of the conquest. Me or someone will work these into the article. Note that this report is already referenced in the article somewhere --Senra (Talk) 00:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * --Senra (Talk) 20:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Religious sites
 * Could/should "William I" be wikilinked? Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Public services
 * The sentence "This is in the hard range of the scale which is more than moderately hard and less than very hard" left me none the wiser Agreed removed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised there aren't articles for the "largest straw-burning power station in the world" and "world's largest poultry litter power plant" Stet for now. I too am surprised but these claims are sourced. Lets see if they last --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I feel a couple of new articles coming on :) --Senra (Talk) 20:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

References
 * Refs 5, 40, 42, 50, 104, 106, 124, 125, 145, 148, 157 & 158 should have format=PDF in them. Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 61 says NOTE THIS IS NOT AN RS SOURCE - eith it is & this should be removed or it isn't in which case another source may be needed Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The dates for "retrieved" are not in a consistent format eg 64 & 65 say "November 08, 2011". when others are in the format "8 November 2011" - there may be other examples Agreed my goodness but there were a lot of them :( --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 110 may be better as a note Agreed --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

General comments
 * A lot of surnames of sources are used without telling us who the people were or their credentials for making the statements. I would refer to the descriptions where relevant but only use their name in a note or reference.


 * Agreed Surnames removed or qualified --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I hope these comments are useful and are not intended to lesson the vast amount of work which has gone into the article so far.&mdash; Rod talk 15:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed my friend. Thank you so much. I will address the remaining issues in due course --Senra (Talk) 17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Malleus Fatuorum

Lead
 * "Sacrist Alan of Walsingham's octagon, built over Ely's nave crossing between 1322 and 1328, is considered by some to be one of the wonders of the medieval world." "Ely Cathedral's octagon is one of the wonders of the medieval world." Well, is it or isn't it?
 * Agreed replaced with architectural historian Nikolaus Pevsners quote. Incidentally, for the record (er no need to defend yourself Senra) it was originally an unattributed insertion in the lead image caption by someone else. Trying to AGF previous editors, I attributed it; then removed it from the caption and now removing this contentious phrase entirely --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "Major rivers including the Witham, Welland, Nene and Great Ouse, feed into the Fens ... The economy of the region is mainly agricultural, although before the fens were drained ...". Is it to be "Fens" or "fens" neither to be confused with the Fenland?
 * Not sure. I am confused. I am guessing that "The Fens" are The Fens (local name for the area) and "a fen" is a fen (a wetland generally) so I think it depends on context. Neither of those are to be confused with the local government district the Fenland which I believe is distinct from the fenland; another name for the local area :( Incidentally, I thought I had got the context correct but obviously I had not --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "The Roman Road Akeman Street (not to be confused with Akeman Street), from Ermine Street near Wimpole to Brancaster, passed to central Ely." What does "passed to" mean? And what on Earth does the exhortation not to confuse Akeman Street with Akeman Street mean?
 * Agreed done but not happy with my wording. The difficulty is, in the lead at least, it is hard to explain that Akeman Street is not Akeman Street; there being two of them. Victorian antiquarians eh! So many legacies to untangle :( --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * " Æthelthryth (Etheldreda) founded an abbey on the island of Ely in AD 673 which was destroyed in 870 by Danish invaders." The way that's written makes it seem as if it was the island that was destroyed, but presumably it was the abbey?


 * Agreed although the Danes may have destroyed the island too :) --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "In 1974 city status was confirmed by royal charter on the Ely parish council". Not at all sure about that "charter on"; surely charters are granted to?
 * Agreed actually another phrase I inherited but no excuse --Senra (Talk) 10:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Follow up comments by Rodw This article is greatly improved - well done to everyone who has worked on it. Just one minor comment:
 * In "Victorian and twentieth-century regeneration" the claim in the final paragraph about being a "significant port" should be fairly easy to reference.
 * Agreed --Senra (Talk) 18:27, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

otherwise I think it is looking good and I wish you luck with the GA nomination.&mdash; Rod talk 16:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)