Wikipedia:Peer review/Ely and Littleport riots of 1816/archive2

Ely and Littleport riots 1816
This peer review discussion has been closed. This article failed a GA nomination a few years ago. I have recently addressed all outstanding tasks from that nomination. I would like to re-nominate this article as a good article. Please peer review this article with that objective in mind.
 * Previous peer review

Thanks, Senra (talk) 12:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Introduction (Joja)
I assume you have looked at the automated tips.
 * Nope. But I have now -- Senra (talk) 11:11, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I made one pass over the introduction. Here are my comments: I hope this is helpful - I welcome feedback on my feedback. I'll try to get to the rest as I am able in the next few days. Joja lozzo  06:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Overview: I think the reader is able to infer what the riots were but I think the general why's and what's of the event can be improved and made more explicit without a large burden of detail.
 * First sentence:
 * The phrase, "against a background of similar unrest throughout the country following the Napoleonic Wars", is very vague and does little to explain what the riots were about. Instead we only imply the cause of unrest in this case in the second sentence, whereas this seems to me to be information that should be covered in the first sentence.  -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "the country" - Not every reader will know Cambridgeshire is in England. -- Senra (talk) 11:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The action of the third sentence appears to be happening in the inn, since no location is specified. However, that seems unlikely, yes? {[done-t}} -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The phrase "see printed bill pictured" is awkward. Perhaps "see printed bill (reproduced at right)"? -- Senra (talk) 11:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the whole introduction is too detailed and overly specific in dates and numbers. I'd rather see a nice, juicy summary than all these facts and figures: -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Very specific numbers of people: "56 residents", "18 men", "82 rioters", "Twenty-three men and one woman", "nine men", "a trooper was injured, one rioter was killed and at least one went on the run" partially done -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Days of the month - only provide these in the body. Perhaps a date range in the first sentence (paragraph?) would be sufficient. {[done-t}} -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sentencing details in the last paragraph are also excessive for the lead. {[done-t}} -- Senra (talk) 11:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "conflagration at The George and Dragon": a conflagration implies there was a fire but I don't see mention of that in the body. On the other hand, as an attempt at poesy, I much prefer it to dull numeric and day-by-day details, but let's juice it up without stretching the facts. This is not a word I would use myself so it is probably sourced (see note below) but on your advice, I have changed this to 'altercation' -- Senra (talk) 11:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed it is very helpful. I am not a good lead writer but I have done my best. With your permission, I wish to seek help from another editor to write the lead? Or perhaps we should wait until you have completed the review? -- Senra (talk) 11:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC) Note: I no longer have the sources. It will take me a while to obtain one of them via inter-library loan. As a result, I may be reluctant to make some changes until I can check the source for that change -- Senra (talk) 11:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The introduction is much more readable and offers a good summary. Nice work. When you think we're ready, I'm willing to make a copy edit pass. Joja  lozzo  20:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you though Dr. Blofeld did more on the lead than I. Incidentally, I was not aware that you are a copy-editor too. Now I know. The reason I asked for one was because you drew my attention to the automated tips which contain the instruction: "Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work". I know that it is New Year so I am in no rush. However, when you are ready, please finish the review. In addition, I would also welcome your opinion on my earlier removal of Talk:Ely and Littleport riots of 1816 on the basis that it was too much detail -- Senra (talk) 20:39, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Background (Joja)
This section is in good shape generally: Thus I guess I can replace "To put that into perspective, ..." with "In 1815 in the House of Commons, Earl Grey said 'At the present price of 60s. the quartern loaf was 1s. and therefore at 80s. one third more, the price of the quartern loaf must be 1s. 4d. (sourced to Hansard) and 2012 prices added?
 * "Replies to the Board of Agriculture in February, March, and April 1816 documented..." is awkward. Replies from whom, to what? Maybe "documented" could be replaced by something simpler like "said" or "included". -- Senra (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think the source supports the calculation of 2012 loaf prices. A loaf of bread costs more than the wholesale price of the wheat that goes into it.
 * Not sure about this. I agree 2012 values are not in the sources. However, I understand from previous FAC's and from WP:CALC that it is not WP:OR to carry out routine current-value calculations provided the source of such calculations are made explicit. In this case, unless I am missing your point, in early 1816, a quarter of wheat cost 52 shillings (£153) rising to 103 shillings (£303) in December and the 2012 per loaf costs of between £3.50 and £6.70 reflect that -- Senra (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I understood the last sentence of the section to say what the price of a loaf of bread would be if we paid for the wheat at 1816 wheat prices adjusted for 2012. My point is that the source only tells how much wheat goes into a loaf but nothing about the cost of making the loaf. There are other costs in making bread than the raw, wholesale grain price (labor, energy, other ingredients, fixed costs). Joja  lozzo  23:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * * OK. Fair enough. I'm not an economist so this is going to be very difficult. Hansard does not have digital text for 1816 but it does for 1815. The best I can offer is ... "At the present price of 60s. the quartern loaf was 1s. and therefore at 80s. one third more, the price of the quartern loaf must be 1s. 4d."
 * Quartern loaf n. b: A quarter of a pound (in later use Eng. regional)
 * -- Senra (talk) 00:49, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we can use the Earl Grey source to make the point that bread was very expensive for people making 8 to 9s a week by saying that a pound of bread was over 5s. Joja  lozzo  01:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * -- Senra (talk) 11:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Joja lozzo  21:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need "through £5.00" in this range of prices: "£3.50 through £5.00 to £6.70 at 2012 values per loaf of whole wheat bread". -- Senra (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it might be clearer to add "(28 pounds)" after "quarter". (I think) -- Senra (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note iii is a little confusing. I think it's clearer to say "which makes 90 one-pound loaves" instead of "making 90 by one-pound loaves" and "making 45 loaves" instead of "= 45 loaves". -- Senra (talk) 21:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Surrounding area (Joja)
I've been mulling over a response on this section for a few days. I don't have access to the sources so some of this is inference. I think it will be easiest to copy it here (green text) and intersperse my comments.

There was rioting in the first months of 1816 in West Suffolk, Norfolk and Cambridgeshire;[10]
 * Does "first months" include May? If so, is this statement the introductory sentence for the paragraph?
 * When we say "Cambridgeshire" do we mean Cambridgeshire, but not Littleport? Maybe we simply mean Cambridgeshire in general perhaps including Littleport but nowhere specifically or notoriously?
 * ❌ I have checked the source and yes, we do not mean May and we do include Cambridgeshire -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

on 16 May in Bury St Edmunds and Brandon in West Suffolk; also in Hockwold, Feltwell and Norwich in Norfolk;
 * Do we need this detail if we're not going to describe the events?
 * ❌ Unsure if we need this. The opening sentence says there was rioting around. Then we go into may and mention some specific cases. I guess I am trying to show that Littleport rioting was not isolated -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

then on 20 May in the morning a meeting was held in Southery, Norfolk.
 * This sentence appears to be leading into a real story. Suddenly, we're transitioning from very general to very specific both in time and space and it sneaks in at the end of this long sentence.


 * Unlike the others, this one is described in more detail -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The group, including a Thomas Sindall,[11] marched through Denver to Downham Market, both in Norfolk, to meet with the magistrates at their weekly meeting at The Crown.[12]
 * An abrupt transition from a meeting to a march - how are they connected? What was the purpose of the meeting and the outcome? I think there may be an opportunity to describe their demands instead of further down.
 * "The group" is not very descriptive, especially since in the next sentence we use "1500 rioters".
 * My suggestion: strip off the last part of the first sentence and combine it with this one in a new paragraph:
 * On the morning of May 20, a meeting was held in Southery, Norfolk to . The meeting was followed by a march, 1500 strong, led by Thomas Sindall, through Denver to Downham Market, both in Norfolk, to meet with the magistrates at their weekly meeting at The Crown.[12]


 * I think. Not quite as you suggest. Let me know what you think -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The 1,500 rioters, mainly men but some women, besieged The Crown until the magistrates agreed to allow a deputation of eight rioters inside to make their pleas;
 * The 1,500 rioters": were they rioters already when they're just marching? Maybe "The mob"?


 * Mob it is. This one is my fault. Source says mob. I paraphrased it to rioters. Thank you for the correction -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

to have work and two-shillings (£6) per day.
 * This should be preceded by a full colon, not a semicolon, but I think the flow would work better if it was in parenthesis. However, I'd prefer to fit this into the part about the meeting if possible.
 * -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The magistrates agreed but they had already called the yeoman cavalry from Upwell, who arrived at 5 pm. Backed by the troops, the Riot Act was then read in the market place by Reverend Dering[v] causing further tussles, which only subsided after arrests started to be made.[14]
 * If the pleas are moved to an earlier sentence then tweak this to say "The magistrates agreed to the rioters demands but...".
 * I'd drop "only".
 * at least partially -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure how to handle the imbalance of the general opening of the section and the very specific ending. This is emphasized by the section title which is very vague. I think it might help if the section were renamed to something like "Precedents" or "Preceding events in the region", something that includes time as well as geography.
 * {[done-t}} -- Senra (talk) 16:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

These are some general ideas which I hope can guide improvement. Joja lozzo  01:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * -- Senra (talk) 14:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Awaiting two books as I don't want to make radical changes without consulting the sources. I expect them by the weekend -- Senra (talk) 12:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The books have arrived but as I had a (rare) liquid lunch today, I feel it sensible to leave making any changes until tomorrow :) -- Senra (talk) 16:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This is difficult as I am neither a good prose writer nor am I a sociologist. Contemporary writers, such as the member of the Inner Temple writing in 1816 (from reprint by Warren 1977) or the Cambridge Chronicle of May 1816 (from transcribed extracts 1981), blame the rioters themselves. Modern writers, such as Peacock (1965), Gerrard (2003) and Goulden (2008) do not establish a direct cause. Certainly the Corn Laws (55 Geo. 3 c. 26), first enacted in 1815, led indirectly to a rise in the price of bread during the next few years. There was high unemployment during the period, especially in the agrarian Fens. The recent end of the Napoleonic wars may have aggravated unemployment though a recent Wikipedia IP editor . Resistance to enclosures may have been a factor (Peacock 1965). The was sporadic rioting throughout the country and the government, "fearing a French style revolution" (Goulden 2008), billeted the army at strategic places. There was a riot on the 20 May at nearby Southery which moved to Downham Market where, initially pacified by magistrates, rioters were arrested and two were eventually tried at Norwich Assizes and hanged in August 1816 -- Senra (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I have done it. At least reworded it slightly and taken on some of your suggestions -- Senra (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Littleport section (Joja)
I made a copy edit pass and have a couple of questions:
 * 1) Paragraph 2: Henry Martin is identified as a farmer but he is "disregarded for his running of the parish". I think we should identify him as both a farmer and as whatever his role is in running the parish (it's not my understanding that a farmer would run a parish).
 * according to source he was overseer of the poor in 1814 -- Senra (talk) 11:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) Paragraph 5: Vachall and family walk to Ely and arrive at midnight in the second sentence but he and family are picked up "walking towards Ely" in the last sentence. I assume we have conflicting sources. How can we resolve this?
 * resolved after consulting sources -- Senra (talk) 11:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) May we assume the "Mr. Martin" in the post-chaise is not Henry Martin? If we know that, it might make sense to clarify it parenthetically. If we do not know whether it is Henry or not, then let's leave as is.
 * with reference to Johnson (1893) p. 15 who says "Evans and another gentleman". However, Peacock (1965) p. 99 does say (or surmises) that it is indeed Henry Martin the farmer in the post-chaise with Evans. I'm sticking with Johnson on this occasion-- Senra (talk) 11:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Joja lozzo  22:31, 13 January 2013 UTC

Trial (Joja)
This section is pretty dry and not very informative. Indictments were made (for what?), testimony happened (saying what?), jury was addressed (saying what?). If the meat of these events aren't critical to the story (and I doubt they are) then I don't think the fact they happened is important to us. Does it matter on which day these events occurred? It might be better to shorten the whole section, point out the highlights and list the verdicts. I am willing to take a crack at condensing if we want to go that route.

In case we want to keep it more or less as is, I have a couple of quibbles:
 * On Wednesday, it says "Five defendants were then indicted. Mr Gurney addressed the jury. Two witnesses testified. A verdict of guilty was returned against Harley and Newell whilst Warner and Stibbard were acquitted.". There are five indictments but only 4 verdicts. Maybe it should be four indictments or maybe we left off a verdict?
 * On Thursday we have "Four witnesses called were Elizabeth Carter following which Mr Justice Burrough summed up." Please rectify this - did this have all four witnesses at one point and, if so, is it important? Maybe we can drop "were Elizabeth Carter"?
 * On Friday we have "a considerable farmer". What is that?
 * Warren (1977) p. 57 (reprint of 1816 trial report) says "HENRY BENSON, a considerable farmer, who was out upon bail, was then put to the bar, and indicted for exciting and instigating divers persons to commit riots in the town of Ely". Perhaps he is large and excitable? Farmers eat well and are jolly I think. Actually, I feel this is an important fact if it can be woven in. We assume this farmer was rich because the court asked for his surety of 400l. Poorer rioters were hanged. An injustice? -- Senra (talk) 12:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * There are a number of mentions of the currency abbreviation "l." as in "400l." or "1l.". Please clarify that.
 * the currency abbreviation "l." as in "400l." is discussed in Guinea (British coin) but in context here I think it means 21 shillings. Warren (1997) p 62, which is a reprint of an 1816 trial report, says "Each of you may give his own recognizance of 50l. and find two sureties for 10l. each, or one surety for 20l" whilst Peacock (1965) p. 126 says of the same event "Each had to give a recognizance of £50 and find two sureties of £10 each" -- Senra (talk) 12:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see mention of that abbreviation in Guinea (British coin). Please help me find that. In any case, we need to clarify this and we should not use an abbreviation if it is ambiguous. Joja  lozzo  23:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Joja lozzo  00:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * doing I missed this; sorry. I will follow the 1965 source -- Senra (talk) 16:28, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * in -- Senra (talk) 09:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I am happy for you to have a crack at shortening "the whole section, point[ing] out the highlights and list[ing] the verdicts". As I am sure you can tell, paraphrasing and citing the current contents of the article combined with the removed section took time. It would be sad to see it all go. However, it is reporting the key facts that is important so carry on. I will probably need to check your result against sources but that is not a problem -- Senra (talk) 12:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I mostly added the charges in each case. I think that provides enough substance to justify the rest of it. It's hard to get the right balance so that section isn't unduly long. Joja  lozzo  05:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Aftermath (Joja)
This section is good, except the play mentioned in the last sentence is not part of the aftermath. Perhaps start a new section for "Popular culture references" or, if there's just that one sentence for popular cultural references, add an entry in See also for The Fool (Edward Bond play). Other than that I think its ready for GAN. Joja lozzo  18:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Great. Thank you so much for this review. You put a lot of work into this and I really appreciate it -- Senra (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Blofield
Article is pretty good Senra, well written and sourced, well on the way to featured quality actually, it should easily pass GA. One thing which stands out is your use of "Mr", we don't generally refer to people in articles as Mr and Mrs to my knowledge. Some of the sentences if anything are oversourced, I'm not keen on many citations in the middle of sentences unless after commas, I believe it disrupts reading, and I think that some of the notes are a little unnecessary. Also, not sure why 1816 is in the title, these were the only riots? If it must be in the title I'd put it in brackets or word it as Ely and Littleport riots of 1816.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  18:34, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * [For the record, kindly responded to my plea for a copy-editor]
 * Dr. Blofeld: The Mr. & Mrs. titles agreed. They are probably as a result of me sticking too much to the sources. I will run through and check for other occurrences. 1816 was from sources. Let me think on that one if I may though I like "Ely and Littleport riots of 1816". Thank you for passing through it. Much appreciated -- Senra (talk) 18:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed the title from those people who have a first name such as Mrs Rebecca Cutlack-->Rebecca Cutlack but I have retained the title for those without a first name such as Mr Clarke -- Senra (talk) 19:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that's fine.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  19:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The article name has been changed from Ely and Littleport riots 1816 to Ely and Littleport riots of 1816 as per -- Senra (talk) 13:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Piotrus:

 * {Inflation} template needs fixing;
 * The Inflation template issue was a general issue not just an issue within this article.-- Senra (talk) 12:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * refs: 1) can we replace Britannica ref with something better (a non-tetriary soruce)? 2) Cary 1817 needs to be standardized to the other book ref format used


 * Britannica replaced by OED; Cary's fixed - title was too long and was failing silently -- Senra (talk) 12:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * overall reads and looks well, seems a fair game for GA


 * Much appreciated. Thank you -- Senra (talk) 12:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Celuici

 * Those inflation figures in brackets are fairly confusing. Many readers who (understandably) do not closely follow the footnotes will not realise that they are inflation-adjusted values, and I doubt that many people would know the current value of a quarter of wheat anyway so they don't reveal much. The use of RPI is also questionable -- nowadays people spend a much smaller proportion of their income on foodstuffs and are thus much less affected by price rises. So, again, I'm not sure what value these inflation-adjusted figures actually have much value in helping the reader to understand the article. Celuici (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ❌ on a personal note I would like to include figures as per source and inflation adjusted comparative figures. How this presented to the reader is open review. For the record, I previously had an end-note attached to every inflation figure. This was removed following a previous peer-review -- Senra (talk) 22:41, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * help this is not my area of expertise. I recall carefully reviewing |measuring worth before adding these inflation figures two years ago and I also recall seeking help from other editors at the time. However, feel free to make a recommendation -- Senra (talk) 22:41, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we can strategically place a few inflation conversions to give the reader a sense of the values that they can then apply mentally as they read on. Joja  lozzo  23:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The sentences beginning "Vachell was later to sue the..." seems like a lot of information to inclose in brackets. I think this information is relevant enough to be included in the text directly. Celuici (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * -- Senra (talk) 22:41, 14 January 2013 (UTC)