Wikipedia:Peer review/Enthiran/archive2

Enthiran
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review as it failed its first FAC because of MoS issues cited by some of the reviewers. I want the article to become as good as possible. Thanks, — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 13:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Previous peer review

Comments from SNUGGUMS
Since prose seems to have been the main concern during first FAC, I'll focus on that:


 * Infobox
 * Needs budget and box office numbers
 * This was intentionally left blank because there is no definitive information on the final earnings. All the info given in this article is based on estimates/claims. Kailash29792 (talk) 16:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Estimates are fine to include Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Didn't want to include budget and box office numbers so as to prevent edit wars and IP editors making changes to it. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting, though leaving a hidden note would help either way. I'm sure this detail will be brought up by FAC reviewers. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:10, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Lead
 * Opening sentence is somewhat long, recommend putting main stars into separate sentence
 * Done


 * "film's story" → "film"
 * Done


 * "becoming a homicidal maniac" → "becoming homicidal"
 * Done


 * Box office needs to be included somewhere in lead
 * Didn't want to include budget and box office numbers so as to prevent edit wars and IP editors making changes to it. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * See above Snuggums (talk / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 05:10, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Plot
 * "help Latha, Sana's sister" → "help Sana's sister Latha"
 * "Sana congratulates Chitti by kissing it; Chitti then develops romantic feelings for her" → "Chitti develops romantic feelings for Sana after she congratulates Chitti by kissing it"
 * The reference at the end isn't needed per WP:FILMPLOT
 * I agree, but the source has a plot detail. That's why I added it. Kailash29792 (talk) 16:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Still unneeded, though, and it doesn't feel right to have only source one paragraph from an entire section <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 23:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Since the last paragraph is only two sentences long, I'd merge it with the previous one per MOS:PARAGRAPHS, which discourages really short paragraphs
 * Done. All the comments for this section have been resolved. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:08, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Production
 * Origin
 * "Sujatha Rangarajan was originally announced as the film's dialogue writer, but his death in February 2008 during the film's pre-production led to Madhan Karky being named his successor" → "While Sujatha Rangarajan was originally announced as the film's dialogue writer, Madhan Karky took over after Rangarajan's death in February 2008"
 * Done
 * Principal photography
 * "Filming was wrapped up on 8 July 2010"..... concluded or finished would be better
 * I too would prefer that, but the article is wrap (filmmaking), which we wanted to follow. Kailash29792 (talk) 16:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Reception
 * Box office
 * "Enthiran emerged as"..... became
 * Done


 * Critical reception
 * India
 * Again, MOS:PARAGRAPHS with first sentence
 * Done. Merged small paragraph
 * "stars" is missing after "Nikhat Kazmi of The Times of India rated it four out of five"
 * Done. Added.
 * Try mentioning critics with same ratings within same sentence (i.e. "Nikhat Kazmi of The Times of India and Kaveree Bamzai of India Today gave the film four out of five stars" followed by sentences containing Kazmi's opinion and Bamzai's opinion)
 * Done. Mentioned.


 * Overseas
 * "The" is part of The A.V. Club's title
 * Done. Added.

I'll leave reference concerns to other users, though hope this helps. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 15:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgia
Just noting that it is incorrect to state that the FAC was closed because of "MOS issues"; the prose was a greater problem in the article that appeared at FAC. Because, and  have been through the article now, I will leave prose issues to them. There are still MOS issues; please see my sample edits. A review for WP:NBSP, WP:PUNC, and MOS:CURRENCY issues throughout is needed. On currency, the symbol should be defined on first occurrence, and conversion needs to be dealt with. If the exchange rates are all handled by the two notes covering conversion, then the additional problem (throughout the article) is the lack of "as of" dates (this applies to money and other numbers and statements -- see my sample edits). The citations use WP:ENDASHes on titles, while the article body uses WP:EMDASHes. My edits were samples only. Generally, if these few minor items can be cleaned up, and if the prose editors agree that the article's text is in better shape now, I would not see a problem with the article returning to FAC soon. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:21, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And thanks for the thanks, but 13 watchlist notifications is a bit much :) :) Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As for the exchange rates, the values listed in the source are like archives. They apply to that year only. Its not like BO gross figures (which I think I have resolved.) which can be stated "as of March 2015". —  Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 06:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Looking better, but WP:PUNC is still off throughout. I'm curious about this statement: 205 seems an odd number ... is that correct, or is it perchance a typo for 250? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 12:48, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Enthiran was the only Tamil film featured on the Internet Movie Database (IMDb) list of the 205 best films of 2010 ...
 * Tweaked the sentence. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 13:07, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ha, I was thinking the very same thing! 201 wouldn't be so odd, rather like 1001, but 205 I thought strange.♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I think I've addressed the quotation issue consistently now, if I've done it wrong let me know! This isn't written in American English of course. Can you give an example of the NBSP issues you can see?♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:34, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Also do list a few PUNC issues here in the PR, please. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 13:42, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Even with the samples given (below) by Nikkimaria, the issue has still not been corrected. The shortcut has changed since my days as FAC delegate, and Nikkimaria more correctly points to MOS:LQ for logical quotation, so I apologize for the confusion that resulted from pointing at the wrong shortcut. Yet, with Nikki's samples, as in this correction I just made, the full sentence from this source:
 * "Never before, except in the movie Bicentennial Man, has a robot been referred to as human".
 * had the punctuation outside the quote.  The way to address this is to a) read and understand MOS:LQ (because any FAC participant has to know this), and then, b) search the article for every instance of
 * to find the places that are wrong. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:45, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Corrected the places that are wrong. Please do let me know if there are any more punctuation issues left. Thank you so much for improving the article. It's looking a whole lot better now. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I am going to be traveling, so can't check further, but unless the prose reviewers (, and ) disagree, I would recommend to  that the article is now in good enough shape for an earlier-than-two-weeks return to FAC.  Good luck (unwatching now)! (But in the future, pls ask those folks who gave premature or implied support to take greater care to learn the standards at FAC, so nominators, reviewers and coordinators don't have to do extra work to cover their oversight :)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:23, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yay, thanks again. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 14:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take a look over the article later today, and I'll weigh in then.-RHM22 (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Corrected the places that are wrong. Please do let me know if there are any more punctuation issues left. Thank you so much for improving the article. It's looking a whole lot better now. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I am going to be traveling, so can't check further, but unless the prose reviewers (, and ) disagree, I would recommend to  that the article is now in good enough shape for an earlier-than-two-weeks return to FAC.  Good luck (unwatching now)! (But in the future, pls ask those folks who gave premature or implied support to take greater care to learn the standards at FAC, so nominators, reviewers and coordinators don't have to do extra work to cover their oversight :)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:23, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yay, thanks again. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 14:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take a look over the article later today, and I'll weigh in then.-RHM22 (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Nikkimaria
Mostly focusing on MOS and related issues rather than coverage
 * The Rajinikanth boxed quote appears to be missing a word - please check with source
 * Checked with the source here. No words missing. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 06:57, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are: "Shankar would point out" vs "Shankar would point it out", "four to five days shooting" vs "four to five days of shooting"
 * After a year, I spotted this one comment! Rectified. —  Ssven2  Speak 2 me 04:53, 21 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Quotes in boxes or blockquotes don't also need quotation marks
 * Done. Removed quotation marks.


 * Per WP:LQ, when a quote is not a full sentence the end punctuation should be outside the quotation marks - not "exasperates you when you listen for the first time." or "Indian cinema's pinnacle of evolution." or "the perfect getaway film.", etc
 * Done. As asked.


 * "It eventually finds Vaseegaran, who entered AIRD to stop him" - him being the robot? If so, should use "it" consistently
 * Done. As asked.


 * "to which Chitti explains" -> "but Chitti explains"
 * Done. As asked.


 * "the now-defunct company, Media Dreams" - don't need that comma
 * Done. As asked.


 * "box office failures" -> "box-office failures", check for other instances of missing hyphens
 * Done. Resolved comment. Will look for additional instances.


 * Major geographic features like India, Malaysia and the US shouldn't be linked
 * What about Kerala, Karnataka and other Indian states? — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 15:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Those can be linked but should not be linked multiple times nor chain-linked. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:56, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Linked the states once. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 06:51, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in whether you use the serial comma
 * Where do you notice inconsistency in using it? — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 06:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Usually it is not used, but then it appears in Note 8. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Got it. Thanks. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 14:27, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Aluminium composite panels need not be capitalized; nor should 3D Storyboards, check for others
 * Done. Resolved comment. Will look for additional instances.


 * "all possible angles from where" - should be "from which"
 * Done. As asked.


 * "vocoder – laden" -> "vocoder-laden"
 * Done. As asked.


 * "the music of Robot does not appeal" - should italicize Robot
 * Done. As asked.


 * You can use either spaced endashes ( &ndash ) or unspaced emdashes (&mdash;) to break up sentences, but you should stick with the same one throughout
 * "Enthiran was released on 1 October 2010 in 3,000 theatres" - since the following numbers do not add up to 3000, where are the other theatres?
 * Done. Removed 3000.


 * "it won a special award under the section, Winds of Asia-Middle East" - no comma, should use endash not hyphen, should have quotation marks around section
 * Done. As asked.


 * "on the review aggregator website, Rotten Tomatoes" - don't need comma there, check for other extra commas. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Resolved comment. Will look for additional instances.

Thank you Nikkimaria, great help. Perhaps Sandy can take another look once Nikki has fully gone through it and they've all been addressed. Before it's nominated again we really need to make sure the MoS issues have all been dealt with as much as possible. Nikki can you spot any further NBSP and PUNCT issues?♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Some of the above are PUNCT issues; NBSP issues I don't see, but that's also not a guideline I know as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments from RHM22
I'll take another look at the article before you renominate at FAC. I've begun my final read-through, but I won't be able to finish it right now. I'll continue a bit later this evening, leaving some comments here as I go along.


 * Why is Bachchan's maiden name used throughout the article? Since she was married at the time of filming and release (according to her article), why not just use her married name? It may be a bit confusing to readers, since her full (married) name is used sometimes, and just her surname (maiden) is used other times. I would standardise it one way or the other.-RHM22 (talk) 19:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Besides the infobox, lead and cast sections (and also the "Cast and crew" section where I introduce her by her full name in the article's body), there is a quote in the "Critical reception" section mentioning her full name. I left that as it is in the quote. I used Rai everywherer instead of Bachchan to avoid confusion with Amitabh Bachchan, whom I mentioned in the article as being a candidate for the character, Bohra, before Denzongpa took over. In which places do you suggest I standardise her name? — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 05:33, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a tough one for me, because I'm not overly familiar with the subject matter. I would suggest either changing every use of her full name (besides the quote) to "Aishwarya Rai" or changing the uses of her last name to "Bachchan". Since the other Bachchan is only mentioned very briefly, I don't think it will cause much confusion, since readers can infer from context. You can try to leave it as-is, but someone at FAC might question it.-RHM22 (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Changed to "Aishwarya Rai" as per your suggestion. — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 03:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "It was the first Indian film for Legacy Effects studio..." "For" doesn't seem correct here.-RHM22 (talk) 00:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Changed it to "Enthiran marked the debut of Legacy Effects studio, who were responsible for the film's prosthetic make-up and animatronics, in Indian cinema." — Ssven2  Speak 2 me '' 04:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks better to me. I'll continue my review of the article now. Sorry about the delay; I was pretty busy yesterday.-RHM22 (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "For Rajinikanth, the make-up artist Banu told The Times of India that prosthetic make-up was not used, as the make-up artists did not want him to concentrate on the make-up for too long." This sentence should be reworded, because it uses "make-up" four times in quick succession. My suggestion: "The make-up artist Banu told The Times of India that prosthetics were not used for Rajinikanth, as they did not want him to concentrate on the make-up for too long." or something similar.-RHM22 (talk) 19:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. As asked.


 * "Chopra said, "Robot rides on Rajinikanth’s shoulders and he never stoops under the burden. Aided by snazzy clothes, make-up and special effects, he makes Chitti endearing."" This needs a direct citation immediately after the quote. All quotations need an immediate direct citation after the quoted portion, no matter what.-RHM22 (talk) 21:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. As asked.


 * "Srinivasan, however, said that Shankar "strikes the balance between science fiction and masala quotient."" This also needs a direct citation.-RHM22 (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. As asked.

After the above are fixed, I will support returning this article to FAC prior to the two-week minimum, as long as the delegates agree to do so.-RHM22 (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)