Wikipedia:Peer review/Ernest Hemingway/archive1

Ernest Hemingway
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I've added sources to unsourced sections, and rewritten accordingly. The article is quite lengthy and in my view should be split into subarticles. Would like some feedback as how to proceed to work toward restoring Ernest Hemingway to a GA and ultimately FA.

Thanks in advance to reviewers! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Awadewit

 * The first paragraph of the lead should give some idea of Hemingway's importance as a writer. Currently, it is too much of a list of the types of works he wrote.
 * Done


 * The second and third paragraphs of the lead have a repetitive structure to them (he marries, he publishes a novel, he goes to a foreign land). Even if Hemingway's life was repetitive, the writing of it shouldn't sound so repetitive.


 * It is odd to list just one example of Hemingway's influence on American literature in the lead. Either explain his influence in more depth or take out the one example.
 * *I'm not sure I understand. More than one novel is mentioned in the lead. Are you referring to The Sun Also Rises? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about the last paragraph of the lead, which mentions only one of Hemingway's literary descendants - Salinger. Awadewit (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes. I didn't write that section. It is a bit odd. Will delete. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The material on Hemingway's wives is a bit thin - could this be expanded, particularly since his relationships with them were tempestuous?
 * Have been giving this some thought. In general the idea that his marriages were tempestuous is a bit of a Hemingway myth. It seems that he simply went off to war and returned with a new wife in two cases. His marriage to and separation from Hadley was fairly civil. Later in his life there may have been problems with Mary, but so much is attributed to ill-health, etc., and much of the evidence is in the letters (which I do have!) I've purposely not used his letters for obvious reasons. Want to spend more time thinking about this as I work on other sections. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think dispelling that myth might be important. Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * *Working on this. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there's an opportunity to write a book about Hemingway's wives! Hard to glean the facts from the shadow of the man himself from what I have available. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ordered a book called The Hemingway Women, which hopefully will be helpful. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:03, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Developed more and will expand the articles about his wives. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:58, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the structure of "Notable works" and "Posthumous" is successful. With a writer like Hemingway, who wrote so much, I would suggest sections like "Novels", "Short stories", etc. (see Mary Shelley for an example of what I mean). Also, the section repeats information from the "Life" section and contains irrelevant details, such as film adaptations.
 * I agree the sections don't work. I've moved the text into the individual articles (many of which are in need of work). I like what you've done with Mary Shelley, and may attempt to replace the deleted material. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me know if you need help accessing sources. Awadewit (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do once the clean-up is done. I've have a Hemingway sandbox. If you happen to come across any sources, feel free to dump them in if you have time, but not to worry if you don't. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment to look for sources. Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand completely! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The section on Hemingway's "Writing style" is too short. Again, I would suggest weaving this through a discussion of the different genres he published in.
 * Expanded the "Writing style" section, but think there's an entire article to be had out of this as well! As for your comment above, do you mean to weave the writing style (or bits about the writing style) directly into the biographical sections. Or better to add to each specific article (i.e. The Sun Also Rises and so on...)?Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I know - it's impossible to write a mere few paragraphs on the writing style of someone like Hemingway. It's almost torture. :) See Balzac for an example. I think the writing style can be approached in several different ways. Obviously, each subarticle (e.g. The Sun Also Rises) will have a discussion of the style of that particular book. When it comes to Hemingway's style in general, though, you could weave a discussion into the biography (e.g. Sarah Trimmer) or separate it out (e.g. Mary Shelley). If you want to see a whole set of articles on an author, see this featured topic on Mary Wollstonecraft that I wrote. You can see how I covered each work in relation to the larger article, etc. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * What do you think about a section on "Themes"? I've been working on a separate article on Styles and themes of Jane Austen that I plan to summarize in Jane Austen. There should be more material like this in the article. (You might also think about such a subarticle for Hemingway.)
 * Added a themes section. (Will most likely expand into an article as you suggest, but am getting very busy IRL). Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Understood. Whenever time permits, though, you should return - you're doing great work here. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would suggest you make a family tree instead of including a section made to look like a family tree. See this Austen family tree, for example.
 * Did you put in a request at the Graphic Lab/Photography workshop for this? It's very nice, and would be perfect. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * made it - isn't it great? I'm sure he'd be willing to help you, too. He's a great guy. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Finally requested
 * And done. Thanks for the suggestion! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The "Tributes and honors" section is a long list - these need to be culled for truly important honors.
 * I'd like to see it completely gone, or moved to a new page. Is that too radical? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Not in my book. :) Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Kept some that were easy to cite and converted to text. Eliminated as a separate section. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

There are four well-respected biographers: Baker, Meyers, Mellow and Reynolds. I've used Meyers and Mellow. I have to get my hands on a copy of Bruccoli. Am in the process of adding Baker. It's a bit disconcerting looking at the notes: too many Ms that blend together. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The bulk of the article is sourced to the Meyers biography. Considering there are many Hemingway biographies, I would suggest using a wider variety of sources to make sure that all viewpoints are represented.
 * Only four? How lucky you are! Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * :*Actually that is an important point! I believe the family had Baker as the official biographer for many years. This might be worth adding, but need to dig for sources. (If I were doing 19th century Am. lit and specifically Wharton I'd be in comfortable territory! Oh well, I'm learning a lot about an author I like). Truthkeeper88 (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * American lit is a weakness of mine - I'm British all the way. :) Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't have access to MLA but will figure out how to access the necessary scholarship.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The sections on Hemingway's writings need to be sourced to literary scholarship, which is written by the experts. I would suggest searching the MLA database, which is the primary place to find literary scholarship. There are 4390 results for "Hemingway". To help you sort through what is important, I would suggest beginning with something like The Cambridge Companion to Hemingway, which has excellent introductory essays and a helpful guide to further research. For an article like this, on such a major figure, I would recommend spending a lot of time selecting the appropriate sources and then taking notes on them. (For Jane Austen, we did this online. It has been most helpful.
 * This is not really moot, as the Hemingway article itself needs to have some mention of his writings. The question is how best to present the material. Without a doubt, you will need to access the MLA database - do you have a good public library near you? Or perhaps a state university research library? Awadewit (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * *Sorry, I mean moot as far the now non-existent section. Not moot to the article in general. I live in a small town with a small library, but will see what I can do. Gave up my MLA membership years ago when the discounted graduate student rate no longer applied and I left the discipline. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me know if I can access anything for you. I have access to MLA, JSTOR, etc. I'm at an excellent university library (and have decided to remain in this punishing discipline). Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Made some headway and added more references (i.e. scholarly sources). Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * For Austen, we wrote a subarticle on Reception history of Jane Austen. You might think about something like this for Hemingway - perhaps something that focuses on his literary influence, which is much more important for Hemingway than Austen.
 * Yes, the "Influences and legacies" section is really impossible for the scope of the biography article. What do you think of having a simple "skeleton" type section, and linking to a main article (which at some point I would research and write)? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Finished. It needs to be expanded into a separate article, with a smallish section in this article, in my view. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed - you could also create a draft subarticle in userspace. We've done that for Austen articles. For example, see our in-progress Family of Jane Austen article. Awadewit (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Once the general structure of the article is established and all of the research, I would be happy to review the prose.

I hope this was helpful and I apologize for the delay. Awadewit (talk) 02:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC) :You've found all the weaknesses in the article that I see. I intended to make only a couple of edits and had the Meyers book on my shelf. That one edit, obviously spiraled out of control. My main questions are whether to split out the "Tributes and honors" section which was in the article before I began this journey; and whether to also split out the "Notable works" and "Posthumous" sections. Once those decisions are made, the necessary scholarly sources obviously should be added to the relevant sections (where ever they end living). Anyway, this popped up as I'm logging off. Thanks for your help. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:48, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Out of control is sometimes good! Let me know how else I can help. Awadewit (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)