Wikipedia:Peer review/Fandi Ahmad/archive1

Fandi Ahmad
This peer review discussion has been closed. Fellow Wikipedians, I humbly present for peer review, this article about a legendary Singaporean footballer! Could you start 2012 by pointing out any and all issues that would prevent this article from attaining GA status, thus supporting the quest to counter systemic bias on Wikipedia? I hope you enjoy reviewing this short, but interesting, article, as much as I enjoyed writing it! Thanks! 谢谢！Terima kasih! நன்றி! J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:56, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a few things - it needs an infobox (Infobox football biography), and if online references can be found then that'd be great - in its current state it is hard to verify. Also no date of birth? GiantSnowman 15:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the brief review (and feel free to do a more thorough onre). Would there be any potential BLP issues from including his date of birth? Referenced information on Singaporean topics, even a national icon like Fandi, is scarce, so an infobox would have large gaps in statistics, hence my decision to write all my GAs with a minimalist approach. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Voetbal International link I added to the page includes a DOB, so that can be used to reference it. I will add an infobox now, and show you that we can still include one with minimal information. GiantSnowman 17:21, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarification needed How reliable a source is Voetbal International? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Beyond football should probably be called Personal Life, also pictures would be good and you should split club career into smaller sections (i.e. by each club) to make it easier to read. Adam4267 (talk) 17:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering, clarification needed The Beyond Football section mentions endorsing products, releasing an album and support of good causes. Should these be considered "personal"? The current paragraphing makes dividing the Club career section quite difficult; for example, should OFI Crete have its own subsection, considering he never actually played for them? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I have never edited nor written a soccer biography, but I can help out with some things before you take this to good article nominations.
 * WP Comments
 * "At Serangoon Gardens Secondary School, he played for the school football team, but neglected his studies and was retained, so he transferred to the Singapore Vocational Institute, where he obtained a National Trade Certificate 3." - The word "so" is a bit awkward to use here, but it could be just because the sentence is so long. This is what I would write it as "He played for the Serangoon Gardens Secondary School football team, but neglected his studies and was retained, thus transferring to the Singapore Vocational Institute and obtaining a National Trade Certificate 3."
 * Done Would the use of the present continuous tense be confusing to non-native speakers? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not think so. It reads clear and less repetitive. Splitting the sentence could be considered, but would be choppy. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Suggestion How about "thus he transferred to the Singapore Vocational Institute and obtained a National Trade Certificate 3"? Still short, but clearer, without use of present continuous tense. If you do not reply, I will stick to your suggested wording though. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Good idea. You can do that. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  19:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done Changed to clearer wording, for sake of non-native speakers. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "to allow him to concentrate on football and continue playing for Singapore FA" - "allow him to" is redundant.
 * Done, clarification needed How about "to let him" instead? "He...was given light duties...to concentrate on football..." may be less redundant, but would it be confusing to non-native speakers? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think "to let him" would be clearer and better. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done again Clarity and accessibility to non-native speakers is an important consideration, as many Singaporean readers may be more fluent in Chinese or Malay than English. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "The following year, Singapore FA did not play in the Malaysia Cup for political reasons, while Fandi had to undergo a shoulder operation that sidelined him for six weeks, leading to an early discharge from National Service." - The word "while" is used to show contrast or events happening at the same time. This falls into neither category. "And" is best here.
 * Done Thanks for catching that! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "Selangor FA invited Fandi to play for them in a friendly against Argentine club Boca Juniors, in which he scored the only goal for Selangor FA as they lost 1–2."
 * I do not think your typical disinterested reader (like me) will know what a "friendly" is. Do you mean "friendly game"?
 * Done Yes, I meant "friendly game". --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "In which" is incorrectly referring to "Boca Juniors", not "a friendly" as you want the relative pronoun to. I think some re-arranging needs to be done. Maybe "Selangor FA invited Fandi to play for them against Argentine club Boca Juniors in a friendly, in which he scored the only goal for Selangor FA as they lost 1–2."
 * Done Thanks, I learnt something new today! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "On April Fools' Day 1984, The Straits Times published a front-page story claiming that Manchester United had signed Fandi." - Some clarification is needed here. Was this story a hoax? If not, then why is the fact that it was on Fools' Day notable? It would be best to say "1 April 1984".
 * Done, please check Yes, the story was a hoax. Clarified that. Could you check whether my clarification is grammatically correct? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Perfect! — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "After helping Kuala Lumpur FA win a third consecutive Malaysia Cup, Fandi signed a two-year contract with Greek club OFI Crete in 1990" - Instead of "Fandi", I think "he" would work better here for flow.
 * Done I certainly want the sentences to flow better. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "scoring 52 goals and earning himself a place in the Asian Football Confederation Hall of Fame"
 * Done Redundancy removed. (Was going to write "redundant word removed" but realised the word "word" would be redundant.) --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "only to be substituted in the semi-final match, after Indonesian fullback Herry Setyawan elbowed him in the eye" - remove comma after "match" to avoid confusing "only to be substituted in the semi-final match" as a parenthetical clause.
 * Done Could you tell me more about parenthetical clauses? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Parenthetical clauses, like this one, are descriptive details in the middle of sentences that can be surrounded by dashes, brackets, or commas. So "Parenthetica clauses—like this one—..." or "Parenthetical clauses (like this one)..." work too. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "Fandi is a devout Muslim,[2] who avoids scandals, does not smoke or drink" - I think the comma after "Muslim" is best removed here so that the sentence is not taken as generally all Muslims avoid scandals, do not smoke nor drink. You are referring to Fandi in specific.
 * Clarification needed The Manual of Style states that citation numbers should only be placed after punctuation, hence the comma. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Will this work for you? Feel free to modify or revert. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done Excellent! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Can this article be illustrated with free images, if there are any?
 * Considering Free images of living people are much harder to obtain in Singapore. For starters, Singaporeans generally respect the private lives of celebrities, so there is hardly any paparazzi here. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's OK. GA reviewers should not ask for images if they are not available. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Sources look good. I think italicization needs to be checked. Newspaper names and book titles are generally in italics, but if this is the format you have been using without problem, then fine.
 * Noted Will change if anyone else asks. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for asking me to have a look at this interesting article. I didn't do a thorough read, but hopefully GAN is easy for you. I do not have this watchlisted, so ping me at my talk page for queries. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  14:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Glad you found the article interesting; if so, would you like to have another, more thorough, read? Thanks for the review! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I may, in due time. No problem! — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  15:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I do hope the GAN is a breeze and also hope reading this inspires you to counter systemic bias by contributing to articles in poorly covered topics and regions! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It sounds interesting, but also a difficult task to do. I may consider some projects, but there isn't much in my area of interest. — WP: PENGUIN  · [ TALK ]  01:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Oldelpaso


 * Fandi is widely considered a national legend. - Given that there's nothing in the body of the article to expand on this, it is an example of weasel words. The lead of Real Madrid does not say "Real Madrid are widely considered one of the best football clubs in the world", it simply lists their achievements, which does a far more effective job than a sweeping subjective statement. The same should apply here.
 * Clarification needed In Singapore, there is no serious dispute on his status as a legend. Most of the sources describe him with terms such as "Singapore's favourite footballing son". I did try to explain why he is considered a legend, but perhaps a footnote on how sources describe him may help? Feel free to suggest better ways to put his achievements and status as a legend in context, with or without using the word "legend" itself. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Attribution is usually the way to go e.g. Name of respected Singaporean publication describes him as "Singapore's favourite footballing son". Remember that per WP:LEAD, everything mentioned in the lead should also be included in the body. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done, please check Added a sentence quoting several phrases used to describe him in reliable sources. Is the International career section a good location for the sentence? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Spell out acronyms on first usage e.g. SEA Games
 * Done for SEA Games and SAFFC, please check for other acronyms. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * he chose to sign a one-year contract with Niac Mitra instead, a decision he later regretted. - any indication as to why? A quote would be useful. When reading the article Galatama for context, it states that Fandi left because the league banned foreign players. Is there any information available about this?
 * Done, please check Removed "a decision he later regretted" as difficult to elaborate on. Added mention that the Galatama League banned foreign players, since The Fandi Ahmad Story does mention that. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Three days later, he played in the first leg of an UEFA Cup second-round match against Internazionale of Italy, scoring the second goal in a 2–0 upset win. - a bit misleading. Looking up the UEFA Cup results for that season, Inter won the second leg 5–1 to progress comfortably.
 * Done Added mention of second leg result. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Check for consistency in how football clubs are referred to, such as whether F.C. type suffixes are included.
 * Done Such suffixes are included only when their omission would be misleading. Hence for Malaysia Cup teams, which are representative sides of state football associations and not clubs, the FA is always included. In Singaporean newspapers, Singapore Armed Forces FC is always abbreviated as SAFFC or SAF FC, never SAF (since the SAF is a military force, not a football club). Do you think that this arrangement is fine or that suffixes should always be included if the omission of some would be misleading? --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Many football biographies have a section summarising honours won. See Gilberto Silva (a featured article), for example.
 * Clarification needed To what extent is such a section (or an infobox) required for GA status? I am reluctant to include such a section, that would probably be incomplete, inaccurate and inadequately sourced. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, it no dealbreaker, just something that's nice to have. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Not done but thanks for the suggestion. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Was the match mentioned at the end of the Club career section the only time Fandi played in the Asian Club Championship?
 * Clarification None of the sources mention him playing in any other Asian Club Championship games, but none stated that was his only game in the Asian Club Championship. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Fandi then joined Pahang FA, where he reverted to playing mainly in midfield due to his advancing age. - This seems odd. If I'm reading it correctly, this would be in 1990, when he would only have been 28.
 * Clarification Per the date of the source and the last sentence of the paragraph, this was in 1992, when he was 30. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That year, he also became the first Singaporean millionaire sportsperson. - does this mean a millionaire in Singapore dollars? What is this equivalent to in one of the major reserve currencies?
 * Clarification Yes, a millionaire in Singapore dollars, in 1994. A comparison with a major reserve currency would not be meaningful due to inflation and exchange rate changes from 1994 to 2012. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * In 1996, the inaugural season of the S.League saw Fandi captain Geylang United... - could do with a sentence before this explaining that the S. League was a new top level competition for football in Singapore.
 * Doing Thinking how to explain this. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done, please check the sentence for language errors. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This completed the hattrick of silver medals, though his failure to help Singapore attain a SEA Games gold medal remains one of his biggest regrets - This could do with a direct quote.
 * Doing Looking through the sources to find a suitable quote. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done Directly quoted the source instead of paraphrasing. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Was Fandi in the Singapore squad for the 1984 Asian Cup? To put his international achievements into context, it'd be worth mentioning that Singapore have never qualified for the World Cup, and that their only Asian Cup qualification was as hosts.
 * Clarification According to RSSSF, he did not play in the 1984 Asian Cup. None of the sources explain his omission. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * His number of caps needs clarifying. Fandi does not appear on FIFA's list of players with more than 100 caps, so some of them must not have been A-category internationals.
 * Clarification needed The FIFA Century Club also omits other players who had accumulated over 100 caps for the Singapore national team in the 1970s and 1980s, such as Malek Awab. One source suggests that FIFA rejected FAS records from that period as inadequate. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 07:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It would be useful to have a footnote, explaining that this is the FAS figure, and that there is a discrepancy between FAS and FIFA figures. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Done, please check as this is my first time adding footnotes (despite having written 8 GAs) and I am not sure whether I have done so correctly. --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


 * the eldest two are potential professional footballers who impressed at trials at Arsenal, English club Chelsea F.C. and Italian side AC Milan. If they impressed, they would have been offered contracts. Better wording would be the eldest two are youth footballers who have had trials at Arsenal and Chelsea in England and AC Milan in Italy. - "potential professional" isn't that meaningful as it could apply to anyone who aspires to do something for a living.
 * Partially done, clarification needed Changed "potential professional footballers" to "youth footballers", but unsure on the use of "have had". --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 05:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Hope this helps. Oldelpaso (talk) 23:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! Hope you enjoyed reading the article! --J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 12:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)