Wikipedia:Peer review/Final Fantasy VI/archive1

Final Fantasy VI
This article was a product of the CVG Peer Review. A lot of work and time was put into the article and we would like it to have a peer review before submitting it for nomination as a featured article. Fancruft has been removed and careful analysis has been given to the article to make sure that it is not a GameFAQ duplicate. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 13:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Are the production credits necessary? I can understand listing them for the original version, so we can link Sakaguchi and Uematsu, but the other four headings there are awfully crufty.  -- Norvy (talk) 14:46, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed, DarkEvil has changed the article per your suggestion. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 15:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How about something discussing its release? How was it critically received?  Can we get a gamepro score?  And contrast it to the new score of the rerelease?  How many copies were sold?  The infobox doesn't list the US PS release date.  What influence did this have on later rpgs, or the dragon quest/ff rivalry?  -- Norvy (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * These are all good points and for a critic section, I think there once was a discussion about this but it never got in the article. We've got to put criticism. As well as the influence this is good too. I think the us PS release date was not included because the PlayStation release of Final Fantasy VI was only in europe and australia, the one in the US is Final Fantasy Anthology and is talked about in it's own article;anyway, it's the only reason I could find why this wasn't there after all that time. – DarkEvil 19:32, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, here's the script from GameFaqs: Celes:    Granddad. You have to eat, or else... W...What's the matter? Celes:    Cid... Celes:    No... NO!! You promised you'd stay here with me!! Celes:    Granddad, ANSWER ME! Tell me you're just joking!
 * The image Image:Ariadimezzocarattere.png should probably be removed. It isn't essential to the article, so any fair use claim is tenuous.  The other fair-use images need to have fair-use explanations on the description pages to comply with the rules at Fair use and Image description page. See the image description pages for the images on Sunset Boulevard (film) for a particularly good example of how this can be done. --Carnildo 21:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have added a fair use explaination to Image:Final_Fantasy_III_US_Wedge_talks.png. I've not done this before, so I would appreciate feedback before I attempt the other images. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 22:54, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I'd add a bit more detail on the source -- instead of "Image is copyright Square-Enix", I'd say something like "Image is from the opening sequence of Final Fantasy VI, and is copyright Square-Enix". --Carnildo 23:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added fair use rationale for all but one screenshot and the logo. I will continue with the censorship images and the package artwork tomorrow. I haven't added fair-use rationale to Image:Ariadimezzocarattere.png because of Carnildo's suggestion to remove it. I do feel there is a good case for fair-use. The scene is from Aria di Mezzo Carattere an aria from the opera "The Dream Oath: Maria and Draco", written by Nobuo Uematsu for the game. I think that makes it significant. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 23:51, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * And in fact, the link JiFish provided to the Aria di Mezzo Carattere article uses that image in a good way, this improves the article and adds some kind of a proof to it that this opera, which has been remade outside of the game, existed in the game. Oh, also, thanks for the help Jifish on the fair use rationale, I uploaded a lot of images to wikipedia that you can find across various articles on Final Fantasy and never put this, never knew it was needed too. Guess it's my fault for not reading enough of wikipedia's policies! – DarkEvil 00:04, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * So an image that is fairuse, but has a specific copyright tag, like a screenshot tag, still needs rational? -- ZeWrestler  Talk 00:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It seems so. This is gonna take some time to convert them all when needed. I'd say, the next ones we upload we put a rationale right from the start since we now know it. For those already uploaded without rationale, we put the rationale when we have some spare time or when we are working on the article to bring it to FA status, but we should not try to track down every one of them, we've got to think about the articles first. As for Final Fantasy VI, I've finished JiFish's work. – DarkEvil 01:40, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * So, are we going to remove Image:Ariadimezzocarattere.png? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 11:52, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * I added the similar fair use rational to the image just incase we decide to keep it. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 12:18, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the Image:Ariadimezzocarattere.png image has good points mentioned in its fair use rationale, so it should stay as it is also for the Aria di Mezzo Carattere article. Also, when we're not dealing with screenshots but things like box arts and it's obvious those were not scanned by a user, should we provide the link from where it was downloaded to complete the fair usage? &mdash; DarkEvil 14:19, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm leaning towards removing Image:Ariadimezzocarattere.png, now. Not because I don't think it adds anything. But because after having a look through WP:FAC, I think it might stand in the way of this article becomming featured. As for the cover scans, I would be even better to replace them with orginal scans. I'll see if I can dig out my UK PSX release. But that's probabily not going to be a possibilty for most of them. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 15:50, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Removing it from the FFVI article doesn't bugger me, but not put it for deletion though, because it has its place in the Aria di Mezzo Carattere article. &mdash; DarkEvil 16:50, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I removed it for now. After all, it can be easily re-added. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 17:04, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I replaced it with a better picture. Take a look and tell me what you think -- ZeWrestler   Talk 04:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks good. This one has a more direct bearing on the article, and on the section where it's placed. --Carnildo 05:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Some more areas that could use a little coverage: There isn't a discussion on the development of the graphics. Amano's only mention is at the botton in the list of credits.  A small section similar to the muscial score would be appropriate, and the censorship could be tied into that.  Also, FFIII was a very adult game compared to most other SNES games at the time.  It covered topics like teen pregnancy and suicide.  This should make its way into localization and censorship.  -- Norvy (talk) 16:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed a lot, this is just a good idea that should be really included. You're a great help. The graphic development section would be great, although a little hard to make but it needs too. For the censorship about teen and other things in the story, that would be really great. I may not have time to make the change myself right now, but I'll have some time probably later on today if this is still not made. – DarkEvil 17:07, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Some of this has now been added to the article by User:Norvy. Just one point though: Did the game cover suicide in the censored release? I'm pretty sure it didn't. This page seems to agree with me: They say it was changed to a "leap of joy". (Although, people probabily figured out what was really going on.) Does anyone know if this was changed back in the re-release? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 22:28, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * This screenshot tends to indicate that she was contemplating it. It's not exactly a joyful moment.  -- Norvy (talk) 22:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps only the word "suicide" was censored? I don't think this a major issue, put probably worthy of some additional research. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 22:46, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Celses did jump off of a cliff. -- ZeWrestler  Talk 03:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the question is was that changed to a "leap of joy"? The link I posted seems to agree with my memory on this one. Although, I admit anyone with half a brain can tell what is really going on. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 11:57, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Cid:      Those others who were here... when they were feeling down they'd           take a leap of faith from the cliffs up north... perked 'em right up! Celes:    Everyone's gone... Even Locke, who promised to watch over me... The world's slowly ebbing away...

Celes:    Phew... Why did you nurse me back to health? Did I ever ask you to           help me!? Cid's line was a flashback. The word suicide is not used, but she does jump in despair. -- Norvy (talk) 05:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I gave the article a copy edit. However, there are still a few things I think need to be addressed:
 * 1) Passive voice. It's used a lot in the article. I cleaned up some of it, but there's a lot left. Watch out for phrasings like "the game is considered", "this was translated", and "this was changed," etc. Some of these are okay, but it's also a good idea to try to rephrase them: "Critics consider", "The translators changed," etc.
 * 2) Likewise, watch the literary present tense. I've changed much of it, but I might have missed some. This means that when discussing a work of fiction (as this game is), we use present tense. The rationale is that the game still exists, and thus the story (and translation, and musical composition) exists in the here and now each time it is played. For example, say "Gameplay consists" rather than "Gameplay consisted". "Relm's speech is censored" rather than "Relm's speech was censored".
 * 3) Be sure that every game title is in italics. I changed some, but may have missed others.
 * 4) *I did some work on this and added a few more italics to the article. I think this point is covered now. -- ZeWrestler   Talk 17:08, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Don't forget the uninitiated. By that I mean (within reason) don't use gaming terms that non-gamers will not understand without providing some explanation of them. Even more importantly, don't use Final Fantasy terms that people unfamiliar with the game won't get. Examples from the article that could use a bit of defininig within the article itself: Omake mode, Job System, customization skills, Materia system, Ability (ABP) point system, Guardian Force Junction system, referring to summoned monsters as "summons", moogle, blue mage, the long list of glitches and bugs, the list of characters who appear in later games (Cait Sith, et al), palette swapped.
 * 6) *Most of these have been reworded or removed. A few, like using palette swapped in the image comparison table would be more distracting if they were expanded there.  -- Norvy (talk) 16:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) On a related note, the comparisons to later FF games are kind of fancrufty. Perhaps if the terms I've outlined above are defined within the article, they'll be better, but it might be safer to ditch them altogether. I'd favor comparisons to previous games over those to later games, however; the FF7 article might be a better place to compare the Magicite system to the Materia system, and the FF6 article is a better place than the FF5 article to discuss dropping the Job System. The list of glitches is also fancrufty, as is the list of repeated character in later games.
 * 8) *I would disagree with this. I think it's important to mention how the game influenced the evolution of other games.  -- Norvy (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) **This has been reworked to the point where it just mentions that other series use similar mechanics, and leaves it at that. -- Norvy (talk) 16:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 10) Gameplay. The article only discusses the batle system, but much of the game takes place on the overworld screen and in towns, etc. This should be addressed. See Rudora no Hihou for how I handled it in a similar article (not saying this is the only way; just providing ideas).
 * 11) ". . . the game contained Magic Points that were compiled to learn spells." I'm not sure what this means. The MP are used to cast spells, not compile them, right?
 * 12) *This was referring to the MP experience system, where equipped magicite slowly transfers magic powers to the users based on the MP they earn. It has been corrected.  -- Norvy (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) The "Story" section only covers the very beginning of the game. This should be expanded to cover the whole game (but don't get too detailed! -- no need to list every dungeon and town the characters visit). Also, don't forget to add the "Spoiler" tag.
 * 14) One of the article's two sections on localization changes mentions that the Playstation version drops instruments. Perhaps this could be elaborated upon in the "Musical score" section?
 * 15) *This was mentioned in the lead. I couldn't find anything corroborating this, so it has been removed.  If it was true, this is likely an emulation problem, rather than a content decision.  -- Norvy (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 16) Related, this game's musical score is one of the absolute most popular (if not the most popular) in gaming history. Or at least one might conclude that based on the internet fan community. Some mention of this popularity (provided backed by a source) might be useful. Just check out how many FF6 "remixes" there are at overclockedremix.org and vgmix.com to see what I mean. And how many arrangement albums, both in the US and Japan, feature music from FF6? No need to list them all, but a discussion would be good.
 * 17) *I couldn't find anything particulary "citeworthy" about this, and I'm not sure it's true. Dear Friends: Music From Final Fantasy plays 1 FF6 song, 3 FF7 songs, and 2 FF9 songs.  I suspect that the abundance of stuff on those sites has something to do with the fact that it's easier to work with stuff from the SNES than the PS.  -- Norvy (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 18) "In general, Ted Woolsey took many artistic liberties when translating the dialogue, often making characters seem more enthusiastic, taking out entire speeches, and 'over-simplifying' the lines." Who is quoted here? If no one, take out the quotes.
 * 19) Currently, the article contains two lists of localization changes: "Localization and censorship" and "Graphics and censorship". One should get axed, or they should be merged. The "Localization" one is stronger, in my opinion, though I'd keep the table of image comparisons. BrianSmithson 16:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I crossed many of the items off of the list. There are some I left on because i'm not sure if they are complete yet. Double check them please. --
 * Based on topic 6 on the list that BrianSmithson has written, I have expanded the gameplay section of the article. Can someone please copyedit it and make any nessesary addition to the article. -- ZeWrestler   Talk 12:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)