Wikipedia:Peer review/Final Fantasy X/archive1

Final Fantasy X
I'm nominating this page as I think it holds to a high standard of quality, and I'd like to see it become a Featured Article. Therefore, I'm requesting this Peer Review in the hopes that some creative advice can be given to myself and other editors of the page, and hopefully allow us to achieve that with it. Thanks in advance to all who offer advice. Ryu Kaze 00:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

&mdash; Deckill e r 14:58, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of the prose features extremely long sentences that I don't mind, but many readers will find hard to digest. I've started to break a few of them up.
 * Some of the character, trivia, and location information could be trimmed.

Hope that helps a bit. Nifboy 22:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Lead: No complaints.
 * Gameplay: Needs a more general introduction before jumping into the battle system. This can be as simple as "As in previous Final Fantasy games, the player (controlling Tidus) explores towns and dungeons, solves puzzles, and fights monsters."
 * Gameplay subheadings: Each section is only one or two paragraphs; I'm not sure the subdivisions are much needed.
 * Battle System: Again, introduce it in a more general context before jumping into the differences between it and prior FF games.
 * Sphere Grid: The first paragraph is not "brilliant prose". Unfortunately, by Smerek's law, I can't think of a good way to correct this. Not using the word "allocate" would be a start. The second paragraph is fine.
 * I've edited the paragraph in question, since it seems to have been further muddled with extra information. I'm still not 100% happy with it, but right now it's the direction I'd take it in.
 * Story: I can never figure out how much is appropriate for a plot summary. But do note that the three CVG FAs with an actual story (LoZ:MM, LoZ:TWW, and StarCraft) cover the game's plot from start to finish, not just the introduction of the major elements. Here it's just as important because FFX sets up the plot for FFX-2.
 * Thank you! I get it now!
 * Characters: The designer info is good (if a bit lengthy), but note that the only other mention of the other characters is embedded in a spoiler warning.
 * Reception: Totally needs expanded.
 * Trivia: As above. Trim it.


 * Thanks a lot for your feedback. It'll be taken into account. Ryu Kaze 22:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Very helpful feedback. IMHO "Sphere Grid" would deserve its own heading as it is notably unique in the franchise. ~ Flooch 04:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I hate to be picky, but I think we need to trim this article by at least 1/5. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice good prose for succinctness. &mdash; Deckill e r 01:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Starting to look good; I'd give you guys a hand, but you seem to have this one under wraps. I recommend a target trim of 40 KB. &mdash; Deckill e r 02:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Story: this summary is a bit wordy in parts.
 * Characters: I have some reservations about how the designer interviews are integrated into the article, and have been considering creating a section called "Background and development". On the other hand, they also fit quite well into their respective sections, so I am reluctant to do this without other opinions. Thoughts? ~ Flooch 04:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think a resonable trim for the story section is 30 percent. Normally, trimming plot summaries is my forte, but I think I'll give Ryu the honors for this one :) &mdash; Deckill e r 04:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I see you guys have been working on trimming it all up. Nice edits. As far as trimming the story further goes, I'll try, but I really don't know if it'll be possible to condense any further than its current state while maintaining coherency. There's absolutely so much to FFX ' s story that relates to either the main plot or Tidus' own place in it (which is integral due to the relationship between him and the player) that it's not going to be easy, and we're down to the barebones of that now, it looks like. I will try, though.


 * As for the developer info, I think it should remain where it is. It really does fit there, and I just can't see the justification of two different sections to talk about different angles of the same subject. Thanks for all your help, guys. We really are making something special out of this. Ryu Kaze 11:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well... damn. I've spent nearly the last hour working on trimming, right? And when I started, the page was at 48 kb, right? Well, it's still at 48 kb, and that's after shrinking several sentences in the Story section and punting several parts from the Trivia section (they were repeated on their respective subjects' pages). I don't think it's getting any smaller than this, guys. The Story section can't go any shorter than this without being impossible to understand, the Gameplay sections can't shrink any further without becoming stubs and the Character and Geography sections won't be FA worthy if they lose any developer info. Obviously, Reception is small enough as it is, and that's just with it containing terribly relevant info. Merchandise is the only thing that we could shrink, but I'd advise against that. The article size style guide does say not to sacrifice relevant info for the sake of length. While one might argue that it's not as relevant as the other stuff (which would be true), it does provide diversity in information, which is itself quite relevant.


 * By the way, remember that the invisible stuff we don't see when looking at the main body of the article (extra text for links and references) is part of that 48 kb. Ryu Kaze 11:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I just managed to reduce it to 45 kb by adding a bunch of reference shortcuts and removing a chunk of invisible text that had been left in the Character section. 45 kb sound okay to everyone? Ryu Kaze 12:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 44 kb now. I found a few more shortcuts I could add. Ryu Kaze 12:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Looking it over further, I suppose we could sacrifice the Ultimania section if everyone thinks it necessary. If we do, though, we'd have to do the same on the Final Fantasy X-2 page for consistency's sake. I'd hate to lose the info, but if that's what you guys think we should do, just say so. Ryu Kaze 12:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, what the hell. I'll go ahead and do it. Ryu Kaze 12:19, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Even taking out that whole extra paragraph on Ultimania only reduced the page to 43 kb. I really really don't think we can -- or should -- drop anything else. Thoughts? Ryu Kaze 12:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Good work on your latest edits Ryu. The article file size isn't a problem to me. However, the overall coherence is, and to at the moment, the article is in it's best shape ever, even if it is at 43kB. I'm going to take a break, come back in a few hours, read over the whole article and see what other things I can think of.
 * P.S. OMG, learn to use the Show Preview button more! You're monopolizing the edit history! :) ~ Flooch 12:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Game Reception - Seems a dupe as we have the top 20 games and the sales figures on the first paragraph as well. One of them could go bye bye IMHO Renmiri 14:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, I'll take care of it. Good catch. Ryu Kaze 15:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, we're down to 42 kb and I think it's about as good as it's going to get. If anybody else agrees that it's ready for FA, I'll go ahead and nominate it. Ryu Kaze 15:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I tightened it a bit too: All sales are now on"Reception" and the opening paragraph just links to it Renmiri 14:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest completely removing the Trivia section. You've already moved most of the salient facts (like sales figures, etc) into appropriate parts in the main body of the article, and I think that the remaining items under Trivia are truly trivial and don't warrant inclusion in the article. FACs can be brutal for this type of article, so keep it on PR for a few more days and solicit all the suggestions you can. :-) --NormanEinstein 21:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your suggestions. Personally, I think half of the Trivia info (the development stuff) is worth keeping, but I really think we could ddrop the rest. Ryu Kaze 23:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have gotten a lot of good feedback by game fans on the "blitzball photo shoot" trivia bit. I'd like to keep at least a one liner on it with links to the blitz page. The JAT interview where the "mystery" of Tidus 2 voices is explained trivia bit is also one of my favorites but that one I have to admit that it may be gamecruft [[Image:Icon_biggrin.gif]] Renmiri 14:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooops! Nevermind, both of my wonderful pieces of trivia are gone! ;) - Carry on with the removal then Renmiri 14:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * They were, indeed, nice. I hated to see any of the Trivia go to be honest. I even saved the JAT thing to my harddrive. Ryu Kaze 14:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks to recent edits by Renmiri and Flooch, the article's down to 40 kb. We managed to reach your target size, Deck. Good work, guys. Ryu Kaze 21:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Article looks great now. I'll go through and make any minor touchups I see, but I think we're ready for FA nomination unless anyone has any other suggestions. &mdash; Deckill e r 21:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll try to trim it down tonight, but the story section is still at least 10 percent too long IMO. I highly recommend reducing at least 3-4 lines out of it somehow, just to make the overall article look balance and concise. Then again, this is based on my experience, which may be different then what we'll see in thia FAC. &mdash; Deckill e r 22:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've no objection to the nomination going ahead. As far as trimming the story further goes, I'm not sure if that would be possible at this point while maintaining coherence. FFX's story confuses people who actually played the game enough as it is, really. Ryu Kaze 22:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I second Ryu's, but let me see if I can trim a bit out of it.. Renmiri 16:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Cut almost 600 chracters (10%) and put the story in sequence. Does anyone want to scrub it up a bit more ? Renmiri 18:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's just me, but I think some of the sentences read kinda awkwardly. &mdash; Deckill e r 18:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone just added a whole bunch of gameplay information. Bleh... &mdash; Deckill e r 03:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You want to do it or should I? *cranks chainsaw* Ryu Kaze 03:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Meh.. Good job Ryu. I saved the guy's work to wikibooks, just in case. What kills me about this guys who want to make a game manual out of a Wikipedia FF article is that when I invite them to help me do it at Wikibooks all I hear is silence! Renmiri 16:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. I had the same problem over at Smash Bros. Melee. Nifboy 17:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I prefer the way the story was fixed up prior to Floorch's revert. I think Renmiri did well in condensing the necessary information. I recommend going back to it. &mdash; Deckill e r 20:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Refer to . Please do take the time to read both versions, as I genuinely believe the revert is much easier to understand. Sequence is well and good but Renmiri left the second half of the Story section in a shambles. For a reader that knows nothing about FFX, the revert is much easier to follow. Also, the revert only applies to the second half of the section. The first half, last edited by Deckiller, was kept. ~ Flooch 20:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, I see what you're saying. The only major issue I see with the second half is some of the sentences may be a little awkward because they have so much info in them. Other than that, I can understand the revert. — Deckiller 20:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC) [from my talk page. Flooch 21:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)]
 * Some of the recent changes were good, but please mind proper capitalization, guys. Refer to the Mythology page's archives for the list. Also, why are we omitting Rikku from the story summary? Ryu Kaze 21:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and "temples" (in addition to being lowercase) should be plural. Ryu Kaze 21:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a few subtleties of the story that were missed here. Lines like "fighting Yu Yevon without the Final Aeon prevented him from making a new Sin" are not entirely correct, as he could have used Ifrit or any of them; we should just not make reference to aeons there. Ryu Kaze 21:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've made various changes. We're still at 40 kb, so that's good. Ryu Kaze 21:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okaaaayyy and apparently my changes didn't take effect and I didn't notice this before closing that window. Fuck. Duck. Ryu Kaze 21:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I saved it to clipboard, so I still have it... but the changes aren't showing up. Oh, and guys, we should try to make "1,000" always be "one thousand." More encyclopedic. Ryu Kaze 21:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, almost all numbers should be spelled out. &mdash; Deckill e r 21:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My changes finally went through. Praise be to Yevon. Ryu Kaze 22:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What the... *looks a few messages up* ...duck. Deck, is something wrong with the servers? It's like the page is flopping back and forth between new and old edits. Ryu Kaze 22:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the servers have been awkward all day. It took me over three minutes to register an edit on the FFX page earlier. &mdash; Deckill e r 22:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The main page was actually down for a few hours today. And there's definitely something fishy going on -- Ryu's last edit on the article wasn't as extensive as advertised (see diff) ~ Flooch 22:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh what the fuck Duck. It said it took it. Jesus Christ Yu Yevon. Give me a little while to go back and do it all again, guys. Ryu Kaze 22:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for giving me the window to do it in. It's done. Ryu Kaze 22:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there anything anyone really feels would get in the way of an FA vote at this point? I mean, even with all we've done to the story section today, it's not that different from what it was before. And we're at that target kb size now. I think we should go ahead and nominate it and see if it can make it. We could always make minor tweaks during the nomination process. Ryu Kaze 23:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I still recommend waiting a couple of days just to make sure no people says "Refer to Peer Review" ;) &mdash; Deckill e r 00:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you elaborate on that concept for me? I'm not sure if I get it entirely. Does it mean "I've looked at the Peer Review and think there was something there you missed, so I'm referring you back to it cryptically" or does it mean "I think you could have had a longer Peer Review"? Sorry if this is a stupid question. Ryu Kaze 00:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it meant that, if the FA reviewers see that the Peer Review hasn't been touched in a couple days, then it's an old review and the article has been changed accordingly. &mdash; Deckill e r 19:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. Ryu Kaze 04:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Story: Ahem... Guys, I thought the idea was to shorten the story section... From Deck's latest (and excellent btw) edit of my abridged version to the current version you guys added 1,500 characters!!!
 * Isn't there a way we can fix the omissions of Deck and mine shortened version instead of reverting to the longer stuff ? Renmiri 13:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I mean, I love the details of how Sin was crafted an all, but those belong in the mythology or the magic of FF pages not here on story IMHO Renmiri 13:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your feedback, the issues you addressed have been remedied. :) ~ Flooch 18:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was what I was trying to point out earlier; some of the details aren't necessary for the main page. Looks great now. &mdash; Deckill e r 19:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does look a lot better. Good job, Flooch, and good suggestion, Ren. Ryu Kaze 19:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it looks great! Renmiri 00:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Map of Spira: Since we already have the map on the Spira page, what about we use one that shows Yuna's pilgrimage route ? This cool on from my The Art of Final Fantasy book does! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/en/thumb/a/ae/SPMAPS2.jpg/400px-SPMAPS2.jpg


 * It's a gorgeous map, but a little unsightly with the numbers. How about this one instead? Ryu Kaze 03:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That is the original one I scanned from my book, isn't it ? You can see I cut a bit on Zaon's side... It is the same one I added the numbers to, only in better resolution. The reason I didn't suggest this one is because it is so good and big that it may get the img police on our case. I've had enough battles with them, but if you guys think it is worth it, I can do a decent scan of it with both sides showing! Renmiri 03:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's worth a try if there's no objections from anyone else. Ryu Kaze 12:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, the scan is here . Can anyone tell me what is the max scale I can have for it and still stay kosher with the copvio limitations ? Renmiri 22:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Holy crap. o.o *saves* Well, I'm sure it would be a lot smaller than that. XD That's a great scan Renmiri. It looks gorgeous. I'm honestly not sure what a safe size for the image would be. Though if it were anything smaller than this, the details wouldn't be all that visible. Ryu Kaze 23:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Uploaded Image:Map23cx.jpg here at Wiki. Shall we change it at the FFX page to this pic then ? Renmiri 15:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should. Ryu Kaze 14:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The more I think about it, the more I think that we definitely should since it displays the game's art style and is a great example of the asian inspiration. I'm going to go ahead and add it in. Ryu Kaze 22:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed 100%, that is why I went into the trouble of scanning it twice [[Image:Icon_biggrin.gif]]. Renmiri 05:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good work, Ren. Ryu Kaze 14:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Any other suggestions? Ryu Kaze 01:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Final check?: All that's left now is checking each sentence for correct grammar. FA nominations are particularly picky about "bad sentences". ~ Flooch 02:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Oooo - I leave that in the capable hands of the English native speakers here and also leave a msg at JarlaxleArtemis page, he is great at tweaking narrative! I gotta confess I'm not en-N but esol Renmiri 02:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoa, seriously? I would have never guessed that. What is your native language, Ren? Ryu Kaze 03:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

maybe its just me, but i hate red links.... in my opionion, the red links should be taken out, or someone should make a page for them: Motomu Toriyama, Takayoshi Nakazato, Shintaro Takai, Fumi Nakashima, and whatever other ones there are. maybe just a single page labeled "Final Fantasy X Staff" then just have them linked to the apporpriate sections.... but thats just my two cents -Xornok 18:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point but I think the proper thing to do is to either stub them (create a stub page for each) or link to their page at IMDB.