Wikipedia:Peer review/Francis Poulenc/archive1

Francis Poulenc
This peer review discussion has been closed. Francis Poulenc is another French composer I hope to get to FA standard in the wake of Fauré and Massenet. Poulenc is too often dismissed as a lightweight, and I hope I have done a little bit to counter that misapprehension. Comments on prose, balance, images, sourcing, indeed anything, will be gratefully received.  Tim riley  talk    11:21, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments from BB
First half:
 * Lead


 * "he came under the influence of Erik Satie and Jean Cocteau, under whose tutelage he became one of a group of young composers..." This sort of suggests that Cocteau was one of Poulenc's music tutors, which is hardly the case. Also, I note that the only reference to Cocteau's influence on the young Poulenc is in a quotation of Milhaud – we next meet Cocteau in 1958. So if Cocteau is worthy of mention in the lead, his influence needs to be spelled out a little more directly.
 * Early years


 * "when he was eight he first heard the music of Debussy and was fascinated by its modernism." Could the eight-year-old really identify "modernism"? I suspect that it was the originality of the sound that fascinated him, which only later he recognised as modernism.
 * Referring back to my earlier comment re Cocteau, it seems that the musical influence of Viñes was profound, but he is not mentioned in the lead at all.
 * "Henri Hell" – what a name! A slightly spooky inversion of "Henry Hall" – remember him?
 * "Here's to the next time", if I have the right bandleader. This bloke's name has forced me to flout WP rules about repeating people's given names. I can't say, e.g., "Hell finds the work enjoyable" without the risk of raising the eyebrows of the devout.  Tim riley  talk    18:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * First compositions and Les Six


 * jeu d'esprit is probably worth a link
 * Comma after "local elementary school at Saint-Martin-sur-le-Pré"?
 * ...and another after "known in France"
 * [Doesn't Ravel look rather like Kenneth Williams? SchroCat  and Cassianto need to be advised]
 * Is it possible to present the text of the Milhaud quotation in a manner that differentiates it from the main text in some way?
 * It's a blockquote; does the indented left-hand margin bump into the tripartite mugshot on your screen? You must have an unusually big one. The layout looks fine on my desktop and laptop. I could make it a full width quote box, but I'm not sure that would help. I suspect the vagaries of hugely differing screen sizes and resolutions are something up with which we simply have to put.  Tim riley  talk    18:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "taking a total of 58 lessons" is a little Pooterish – maybe not essential info?
 * 1920s: increasing fame


 * "In 1922 Poulenc and Milhaud travelled to Austria to meet Alban Berg, Anton Webern and Arnold Schönberg. Neither of the French composers was influenced by their Austrian colleagues' revolutionary twelve tone system, but they admired and respected its three leading proponents." Slight confusion in the wording here; I would end the second sentence "...But they admired the three as its leading proponents".
 * Make it clearer that Les biches is the ballet referred to in the previous sentence
 * 1930s: new seriousness


 * "after two years' break" → "after a two years' break"?
 * "The following year he wrote three sets of songs..." – probably name rather than pronoun, for clarity (the following "Poulenc" could be a "he"}

If I may say so, notwithstanding the above minor gripes, the prose bounces along most pleasantly and is a joy to read. I look forward to the rest. Brianboulton (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, BB. Absolutely ad rem and all attended to apart from the one layout point (as above) and the suggested link to jeu d'esprit: I'll wait to see if I get away with "leg-Poulenc" once non-English reviewers look in (if they do) before tweaking the jeu. If Wehwalt or Ssilvers tells me "leg pulling" won't do for American readers, or Cg2p0B0u8m expresses disapproval, I'll be getting the blue pencil out for this sentence. Looking forward to your further comments, at your leisure. No rush, as ever.  Tim riley  talk    18:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "My well-loved lord and guardian dear, you ping-ed me, and I-I-I-I am here." I think the footnote about the leg-pulling is quite clear.  Is that the question?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It was, and I'm v. grateful for your view on it!  The Lord Chancellor  talk    19:49, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with it as it stands and will put this article on my "to review list".--Wehwalt (talk) 20:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thank you, sir! Looking forward to it. No rush whatever.  Tim riley  talk    21:22, 30 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Continuing and concluding:
 * 1940s: war and post-war


 * " Vous n'aurez pas l'Alsace et la Lorraine" - will everyone know what this means and why it would rile the occupying Germans? Possibly a case for a footnote?
 * Shall add one. Good idea. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Any reason for the delay in the Paris premiere of Figure humaine until two years after the war?
 * Yes: it was too difficult for French choirs. If I can find the ref I can add it, though that won't do much for the entente cordiale. The lack of good choirs, glanced at in my text, is one reason why the French don't admire Poulenc's choral music as we do in Anglophone lands – the French public seldom gets to hear it, and even more seldom gets to hear it well done. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "crossed swords with composers of the younger generation..." – one or two names, perhaps (other than Boulez who you do mention later)?
 * I'm away from home and bookshelves till midweek: will check then and add accordingly. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 1950–63: The Carmelites and last years


 * Can you give the date and/or other details of the French premiere of The Carmelites
 * Will do. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I was surprised to read that in 1961 Poulenc published a biography of Chabrier. Had he any prose writing experience before this? Otherwise it seems a pretty tall order for a man in his sixties with a busy professional life.
 * He wrote more than he let on. In the 1950s he took part in innumerable radio discussions about music – his own and others' – which he carefully scripted in advance to get his point of view across and project his image as a serious composer. Many of these scripts have been edited and published and they run to several volumes. (One can only conclude that French radio was considerably up-market then from its present sorry state.) –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The fatal heart attack comes rather suddenly. Was there any recent prior history of illness to account for the attack?
 * Physically, a touch of liver trouble (well, he was French) but no harbinger of heart failure. One biographer thinks the drugs he took for his depression may have been a partial contributor to his heart attack, but there is no evidence clear enough to mention in the article, I think. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Music
 * Since I have little knowledge of Poulenc's music [Cries of "shame", "resign" etc from TR], my comments will tend to be niggles relating to style, punctuation etc:


 * "In Hell's view" – I rather gathered you were avoiding this construction (and later on, "To Hell...!)
 * Indeed. The latter is, truth to tell, a deliberate try-on, but the first was an oversight, now fixed. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The long sentence beginning "Poulenc had no time for musical theories" could advantageously be split, but more importantly, there is a hint of editorialising in phrases such as "had no time for" and "was exasperated by". These views need to be attributed.
 * Done. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Reconsider your use of colons in the sentences beginning "The Concert champêtre..." and "It draws on a variety of stylistic sources..." They seem to me as though they should be semis.
 * No, I think I mean colons there – in Fowler's words "to deliver the goods that have been invoiced in the preceding words" (or in Gowers's more decorous phrase I'm using the colons "to precede an explanation or particularisation"). My personal rule of thumb is that semicolons can always be replaced with a conjunction, but colons can't. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "a poignant musical portrait" – editorial opinion?
 * The source says "haunting", of which I think "poignant" is a reasonable paraphrase. Will you buy that? –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * successive sentences beginning "They are..."?
 * Not now. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In the "Chamber" subsection, I did not feel I got a clear idea of the musical character of the works in the second period. The Aubade's achieving "an almost orchestral effect" is really the only piece of musical description in this paragraph. There is more in the other two.
 * I agree, and have enlarged. Thanks for spotting the gap. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "I have finished Les Ténèbres." Is this a reference to Sept répons des ténèbres, which is mentioned in the next sentence, or to a different work?
 * It is. I suppose an English composer would have called it "Tenebrae responses". Ought I to make it crystal clear? –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Reputation


 * Are we permitted to include, verbatim, a 200-word extract from what is presumably copyrighted material? I feel that a quotation of this length would be considered as "unacceptable use" according to Non-free content. The instuctions here deem as acceptable "brief quotations of copyrighted text" but forbid "excessively long copyrighted excerpts". Surely it would be possible to paraphrase much of Larner's tribute and limit the verbatim quote to a pithy couple of sentences?
 * Done. I have inevitably lost some of the piquancy of Larner's phrasing, but I take your point about the length of the quotation –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

That is me done for now. A fine article indeed; I'll let those with greater knowledge of the music have their say on the "Music" section, although it generally reads comfortably for the non-expert. I would like your view, however, on the final point that I raise. Brianboulton (talk) 22:13, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these points, Brian. Some solid improvements arise therefrom, and I'm grateful as always. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Alfietucker
Hi Tim. I've been "away" for some time, and still have - alas - little time to devote to WP, but I couldn't resist having a read-through of your lovely article. Just a few comments:


 * Early years


 * 'a lifelong taste for what he called "adorable bad music"' – some examples of this, please? After all, one person’s “adorable bad music” is another person’s…
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    09:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * First compositions and Les Six


 * Ravel 'damned the recent works of Debussy and the whole of Chabrier's music'. I haven’t got any of my sources to hand, but this seems a little unlikely on the face of it, since Ravel admitted being strongly influenced by Chabrier in his Minuet antique, and also did an affectionate À la manière de Chabrier. I think a footnote at least to more fully explain Ravel's position/the context of his (alleged?) dismissal might be an idea here.
 * Redrawn and expanded.  Tim riley  talk    09:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * According to Milhaud, "Auric and Poulenc followed the ideas of Cocteau". What ideas? Can we say something about this, if only in a footnote (though I think it deserves a sentence or two earlier in the article)?
 * Done. I think I've slipped the extra bit in reasonably smoothly.  Tim riley  talk    09:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * [A point of style - I notice the Milhaud quote uses capital 'R' for Romanticism, as in the aesthetic rather than "lurve". Do you want to do an initial cap on all such cases of 'Romantic' through the article? - e.g. for "late-romantic lushness" a bit earlier.]
 * In quotations I think we must keep the capitalisation as originally written, but we are at liberty to take the contrary course in the main text, and I think we should.  Tim riley  talk    09:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Can we say a bit more about what Koechlin taught Poulenc (I seem to recall it was largely harmonizing Bach chorales, though Poulenc shows here and there some indication that he studied counterpoint).
 * Your memory is not failing you, but I don't know that going into this would be useful to the general reader. I am open to conviction on this point.  Tim riley  talk  

I'm not sure whether I'll have time to do a more careful read, but I thought I'd post these comments for what they're worth, and say how much I'd enjoyed the article. Alfietucker (talk) 21:46, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Alfie, I'm as delighted to get your comments as I am aghast at how demanding they are going to be to deal with adequately. I shall sleep on them. Meanwhile, a cordial welcome back, however fleeting, and looking forward to more from you when real life permits! Best of all possible wishes,   Tim riley  talk    23:00, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As I'm rainspotting (sic) in the Lake District till Wednesday I'll have to delay acting on your points till I get back to home and bookshelves.  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course - and thank you for the update. All best, Alfietucker (talk) 21:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Now dealt with – satisfactorily, I hope. Thank you very much for these points.  Tim riley  talk    09:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Sarastro
Lead
 * "Born into a prosperous family, Poulenc was destined for a business career": Destined does not seem quite the right word here. "Intended"? But that doesn't sound right either.
 * What about this: "As the only son of a prosperous manufacturer Poulenc was expected to follow his father into the family firm." Is that any better? –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Largely self-educated musically he came under the influence of Erik Satie": Does musically refer to his education or the influence or Satie? Perhaps a comma might tidy this up? Or maybe it's just me...
 * You're absolutely right. Comma inserted. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "particularly in the religious music he started composing from 1936 onwards": Maybe "particularly in the religious music he composed from 1936 onwards [or even "after 1936?]"
 * Good, yes. The first of your suggestions, I think. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Poulenc's reputation as a composer, particularly in his native country, was frequently that of a humorous lightweight": Maybe "Poulenc had a reputation, particularly in his native country, as a humorous, lightweight composer"?
 * Better. Done. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * We use "known for" twice in the lead. Not a big deal, just commenting.
 * Amended. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As someone who utterly hates writing leads, I wonder if this one is slightly lightweight? There are certainly parts in the first sections (as far as I've read, anyway) that might warrant inclusion.
 * I hate it too. I'll wait and see if anyone else comments, I think. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Early years
 * Tedious MoS query: Note 1 gives the French original of the quote with a reference, but there is no reference in the text itself. Does the text also need the reference (and I have no idea of the answer, for what it's worth!)
 * Seems to me that the ref in the note clearly covers the associated text. The MoS, needless to say, is its impenetrable self.
 * "...to less elevated works": Not an issue, just that this phrase amused me as someone who appreciates less elevated works!
 * The Poulenc quote about Viñes comes out a little oddly on my computer (which has a mind of its own, to be honest) as it is next to the image and therefore does not quite look like an indented quotation. Similar on the later Milhaud quote. Not sure it is worth worrying about though. I'm just reaching to find something to say here!
 * Brian B raised this above, but I'm pretty sure it's a matter of different screen sizes and resolutions, and something that simply can't be legislated for to suit all users.

1920s
 * "Poulenc's new celebrity after the success of the ballet was the unexpected cause of his estrangement from Satie, who refused to accept the new friendships Poulenc formed with musicians whom Satie regarded as enemies." I had to read this a couple of times to make sense of it. Could the sentence be split?
 * Done.
 * "from whom, in Hell's phrase": Again, no comment but that one made me laugh as well! You should try to slip in a few more like this to see if you can get away with it. The words of Hell, perhaps? The work of Hell?
 * I know! I've been ignoring the MoS and using both his names throughout, but this one crept through. I have included another later on, quite deliberately, merely to indulge my own fourth-form sense of humour, which I am grieved to see you share.
 * "He heard her as soloist in Falla's El retablo de maese Pedro (1923)": This may be my musical ignorance, but is it common to talk about a soloist without an article of any description?
 * It's OK, I think, but a definite article won't hurt, and I've added one. –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Down to the end of this section, more to follow. Looking frankly brilliant so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * And I'm looking forward to it. So pleased you're looking in, Sarastro! I have just been ambushed by my former employers, asking me to copy-edit a 48-page draft publication about offshore wind before Monday (I'm retired, but they still sometimes commission my editing skills – honed, if they did but know it, in Wikipedia peer reviews and FACs) but once I've done that I'll be back in the saddle by Monday, and eager to get to grips with your comments and those of AlfieT, above. Best wishes,  Tim riley  talk    19:47, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Done, so far. Some really good stuff there – thank you, Sarastro! –  Tim riley  talk    13:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

1930s
 * "Music critics generally continued to define Poulenc by his lighthearted works for many years to come, and it was not until the 1950s that his serious side was widely recognised.": I wonder could "for many years to come" be cut completely here?
 * Yes. Better. Done.  Tim riley  talk  

1950-63 I'm now at the end of the Life section. More to follow, sorry for the long gap. Real life is a little manic at the moment. A very enjoyable read this one, so far. My comments on the music section may be less useful, though! Sarastro1 (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Intense worry pushed Poulenc into a nervous breakdown, and in November 1954 he was in a clinic at L'Haÿ-les-Roses, outside Paris, heavily sedated": To my ear (or eye, I suppose!), the "in November" part doesn't read quite right. I'd prefer something like "...breakdown, and he [insert suitable verb] to a clinic ... heavily sedated in November 1954". But reading that back, I'm not sure it's an improvement. To be honest, feel free to smile, nod and ignore this one.
 * I see what you mean, and will ponder.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "It was necessary for him to earn the substantial income that his recitals brought: his personal wealth had declined since the 1920s": I wonder could a few words be trimmed from the first part of the sentence. Something like: "As his personal wealth had declined since the 1920s, he required the substantial income earned from his recitals."
 * Much better. Done.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * All good stuff, and I'm in no rush whatever, so if you have time and leisure to look in later, please do.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Music
 * "To Hell": (fourth-form chuckle)
 * Good! How do you rate my chances of getting this past the FAC reviewers!  Tim riley  talk    16:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Second paragraph of "piano" section: 2 successive sentences begin with "They", then then next 5 with "The". Maybe a tweak or two?
 * Definitely  Tim riley  talk    16:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

No other problems, having read to the end. As I suspected, I am a little lost in the music section, but I get the general idea easily enough and don't feel too overwhelmed! An excellent, enjoyable piece of work. Let me know when it goes to FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:59, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for this. It really helps to have comments from non-experts as well as those (two of them on this page) more expert than I, so your self-deprecating remarks are uncalled for. Really helpful stuff, and I'm most grateful.  Tim riley  talk    16:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
A couple of minor tweaks undertaken a week ago around some petty formatting quibbles (I didn't get an angry missive, so presume I didn't break anything). A couple more questions: 1930s
 * lighthearted: the OED has it hyphenated (up to you whether you follow or not!)
 * song-writing: ditto (and ditto!)
 * What's good enough for the OED is good enough for me (apart from –ize endings, of course). Done.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Chamber
 * "The best known is the Sextet for piano and wind (1932)": I feel there should be caps and/or italics (or quote marks) for the name of the piece?
 * Caps, definitely. Indeed I capped it at an earlier mention. Remiss of me to miss it the second time round. Now done.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

That's it from me. I echo Lord Boulton's comments in the music section: very readable and understandable for a layman (or, in my case, an ignoramus). Please drop me a line when you go to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 20:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you SchroCat. Good stuff in there, gratefully received. Shall certainly ping you come FAC.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment from Dr. B
The lede seems a tad short to me considering the length. I always think it important to mention a few of the notable works of a composer in the lede with the year in brackets unless they're hugely prolific and no works have received any more attention than others.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Better!♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:55, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A good idea, thank you, Doctor.  Tim riley  talk    09:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Cg2p0B0u8m
First of all many apologies for the lateness of these comments and also if they are a bit vague; I may need to check something when I am at home.

lede early years First compositions 1920s 1940s 1950-63
 * is there any comparative evidence that FP was "among the first composers to see the importance of the gramophone"? Possibly this needs checking in a history of recording.
 * One would have to give Elgar the prize, I think, for spotting the potential of the gramophone first, but of major composers Poulenc wasn't far behind him. I don't want a citation in the lead, but I'll dig one out and add it to the main text.  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "a prosperous manufacturer" - is needed, or does it mean successful?
 * "successful" will do just as well, and perhaps better. Done.  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I assume Rostand later "described P as ...", not at the time
 * Indeed. Clarified.  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not sure about "the originality of the sound" but cannot think of an improvement
 * I'm not sure either. I originally wrote "modernism" but BB, above, wasn't persuaded that a child could have understood modernism. Poulenc wrote that as a child he had said "How beautiful it is! It is a little off key" ... "I tried to reproduce on the piano those ninth chords, so new, which had intoxicated me."  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * leg-pulling/Poulenc : I have never heard before; is it just Monsieur Harding or are there other instances?
 * Hell mentions that English critics use the term, and a swift google confirms that the pun is frequently used.  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh dear... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Still recovering from the Harding shock, I thought I would try and tempt you with a quote about FP's musical style from another source, but which avoids the strict light-serious split which most of the other views in the article display: « Je souhaite une musique saine, claire et robuste, une musique aussi franchement française que celle de Strawinsky est slave. » p162 of Landormy P. La Musique Française après Debussy. Gallimard, Paris, 1943. This is from FP in an interview at the start of his career to Landormy. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * This is excellent. I have added it to round off the opening sub-section of the music section. Please tweak my translation if you wish.  Tim riley  talk    14:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks OK, if I think of something I will tweak. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with the previous commenter about the first sentence of this para starting "In 1917 Poulenc got know Ravel..." it is bizarre.
 * Now attended to, I hope to Alfie's satisfaction and yours.  Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It is very difficult to translate slang, and "arse" really sticks out in the next sentence...
 * I agree, and have redrawn. I intend to add a footnote giving the ipsissima verba and have ordered the original source, Moi et mes amis at the British Library whither I shall now toddle down, returning later to deal with the remaining points.   Tim riley  talk    10:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh dear! Roger Nichols was evidently applying a little censorship in his translation. According to the original French text in Moi et mes amis, Poulenc quoted Satie as saying, "Ce c… de Ravel, c'est stupide tour ce qu'il dit!" The dots are as printed in the book, and I fear it is all too plain what they stand for. I am using the phrase complete with dots, exactly as printed. I'm not sure M. Satie was a very nice man.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In the next paragraph "at the front" sounds ambiguous
 * I think I'll chance this. I can't call it the battle-front, as I don't think there was much of a battle raging then where Poulenc was.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 1st para - to be exact does Austria mean Vienna?
 * There and just outside. Perhaps Vienna might be better. I'll change it.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 3rd para - "which was predominantly gay" is this clear?
 * On the gay-straight continuum he was near the gay end of it, but not completely gay, as became plain in 1946, when his affair with Freddie produced a child. I can't write "predominantly homosexual" because the prose would read horribly immediately after "his sexuality", which I can't think of any good way of rephrasing.   Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * following on from this, is "an openly gay man" under Nazi rule, clear? should it be "known"
 * I think "openly" is all right, but "known" is probably better. Shall change.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am surprised that the article does not mention C - maybe this paragraph could include it?
 * Do you mean the first of the 1943 Aragon songs? I must be missing a point, I think: it didn't seem to me to call out for particular mention. I'm happy to be persuaded, though.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "This is a masterpiece known the world over; it is the most unusual, and perhaps the most moving, song about the ravages of war ever composed."(Johnson in his Hyperion notes) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I went off and listened two recordings of it - one by Hugues Cuénod and one by Ian Bostridge. I must have a blind spot, as it didn't touch me as some other Poulenc songs do. But I'll be guided by you and Johnson and make sure it gets a mention.   Tim riley  talk    14:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I couldn't fit in it the biography section very easily, and have added a sentence to the Songs subsection of the Music section.  Tim riley  talk    16:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks fine. Yes, I have blind spots too. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think (but will need to check) that Figure Humaine was very much intended for Belgium, which is not clear as only London and Paris are mentioned.
 * I believe the work was well under way before the Antwerp Chorale got to hear about it and expressed a desire to sing it after the liberation.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't have his letters, so am relying on Massin's book on Irène Joachim: "Dans une longue lettre à Pierre Bernac du 17 août 1943.... « C'est vous dire que cette œuvre est pour la Belgique... » " p286; on the previous page she quotes another earlier letter where it is described as « commande pour la Belgique ». The first performance was a private one at the Concerts de la Pléiade in December 1944, with Bernac turning the pages and Éluard and his wife in the audience (and of course FP at the piano). p292.
 * I'm struggling with this. Figure Humaine is for unaccompanied choir, and I can't see how the composer was needed as pianist or Bernac as page-turner.  Tim riley  talk    14:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well I have double-checked in Massin and what I typed is as she writes (and references: the Bernac letter is no 43-4 p538-40, Chimènes 1994). As for the piano... that quote is from the memoirs of Denise Tual and of course it is possible that she confused this Concerts de la Pléiade with another one. But equally, in Frederic Spotts The Shameful Peace he mentions that Liberté on its own was first performed in private by Poulenc singing and accompanying himself! (One or two sources also sources also comment on the difficulty for the singers, so a piano might be handy). This is my suggestion: In 1943 he wrote a cantata for unaccompanied double choir intended for Belgium, Figure humaine, setting eight of Éluard's poems. The work, ending with "Liberté", could not be given in France while the Nazis were in control; its first performance was broadcast from a BBC studio in London in March 1945, and it was not sung in Paris until 1947. - but please don't worry if this is too much detail/nuisance. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's spot on, and I have adopted it verbatim. Thank you, yet again!  Tim riley  talk    15:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * next para I had to re-read "left for London" thinking they had moved, but this is clarified at the end of the para (of course many French artists came to London after the Liberation)
 * Redrawn  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * general comment for this section, FP was a founder member and active member of the music section of the Front National. I think it should be included.
 * True, and it is mentioned in the biographies. I'll squeeze in a mention if I can find a suitable place.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 5th para, first line, is there an "an" missing after in
 * It's idiomatic without, but an "an" would do no harm if you prefer.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 7th para, it is more than a biography of Chabrier, it is also an exploration of his music, and a personal meditation of its meaning for FP
 * Redrawn  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Have also remembered that Poulenc played the piano in the first revival of Chabrier/Verlaine's Fisch-Ton-Kan and the premiere of the surviving numbers of Vaucochard et fils Ier on 24 March 1941 (see https://sites.google.com/site/rogerdesormiere18981963/concerts-representations/annees), but this may be too much Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Caviar to the general perhaps.  Tim riley  talk    14:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

songs recordings reputation sources
 * in the final sentence do you want to give the year of La Dame de Monte Carlo?
 * Indeed. Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You could mention that FP is seen on film on an EMI CLassics DVD called Francis Poulenc and friends, with Rampal in the flute sonata, Duval in songs and opera extracts (from the Salle Gaveau) and plys the Double Concerto with Jacques Février at a concert
 * Excellent! I'll look up the details and add.  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I would not choose Bernstein and Stokowski as representative conductors, while leaving out Georges Prêtre and Charles Dutoit who recorded much more; I suggest you substitute as they are still notable
 * I'm in two minds about this. Pretre and Dutoit have, as you rightly say, made many more Poulenc recordings than Bernstein and Stokowski, but my thought behind mentioning the latter two was to show that glitzy international conductors were interested in FP. Perhaps add Pretre and Dutoit but leave the other two in place?  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, but will the reader get the point? Having just looked up those Chabrier premieres, I think in some ways Roger Désormière belongs here, with several Poulenc premieres to his name and close collaboration... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:54, 9 November 2014 (UTC) These are not personal favourites, I should add (the contrary for two of them.)
 * I've added Dutoit and Pretre. I'll leave Désormière out, unless you feel strongly on the matter.  Tim riley  talk    15:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Fine, I may add a sentence on his article. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 3rd para should 'variety' be 'various'?
 * No, it's OK, I think: "various young French musicians" or, as here "a variety of young French musicians" will do equally well. I prefer the latter, as the former has a slight overtone of randomness, whereas the latter suggests (correctly) that the ensemble has been planned.  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think some italics are missing
 * Indeed they are, but are missing in the original quotation. I think we are asked by the Manual of Style to leave the italicisation or not as the original source prints it, but I'll check.  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not so happy with the very end. this seems like an assertion without facts by Rogé - an opinion. (One would have to ask the publishers for data on how often the music is played and where.) Why not finish with Larner's more positive comment? I think FP would appreciate it.
 * I see what you mean. I'll give some thought to rounding off with a positive flourish. You're right that we want an upbeat coda.  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Now done.  Tim riley  talk    15:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Décollogne seems incomplete...
 * Is it? Seems OK to me: author, title, year, place, publisher and ref number. What's missing?  Tim riley  talk    17:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I see, there's just an s missing (des): Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Will amend.  Tim riley  talk    15:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course, it is very good anyway and very educational! thank you. You should ignore any of these comments which miss the point. I want to check in Journal de mes mélodies (which you do not mention at all in the article) as I think there are some things there. Many thanks Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * These are invaluable comments, mon général, and I am most grateful. Any responses or retorts you care to add will be most gladly received. An addition or two from Journal de mes mélodies will be most welcome before I go to FAC a few weeks hence. Do you have access to Bernac's book on the songs? Another WP editor has suggested to me offline that a sentence or two giving a singer's view of the mélodies would improve that part of the music section. Don't inconvenience yourself, though. Best wishes,   Tim riley  talk    17:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

From the first entry (1 November 1939) « J'entreprends ce Journal dans l'espoir de servir de guide aux interprètes que auraient quelque souci de ma pauvre musique. Je dis pauvre, je devrais écrire misérable car, telle, elle m'est apparue, chantée ainsi. » Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:19, 10 November 2014 (UTC) PS The best 3rd party reference to the Journal I can find is again Graham Johnson's meticulous notes for Hyperion; maybe that would do? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) You may have missed this, or just declined... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Although a small book the Journal is difficult to get grips with; the 1993 edition (according to the editor Renaud Machart) contains an extra 30% text taken from a rediscovered annotated typescript in the composer's hand. Duval's preface is not much use. In fact the personal note by Graham Johnson mentioned above might be good for a singer/accompanist's view. But I will think more on this. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not for the first time, the thought occurs to me that there are two peer reviewers on this page – you are one of the two – who know a good deal more about Poulenc than I do. I'm grateful for your guidance – and for not making me feel too presumptuous in tackling the subject. I'll enjoy working through your outstanding points, above. Thank you so much!  Tim riley  talk    12:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Crisco

 * File:Poulenc-1922.jpg - Fine
 * File:P1040339 Paris VIII place des Saussaies rwk.JPG - When was the building completed? When did the architect die? There's no FOP in France, so we need to be sure the building is PD.
 * I'm afraid I don't know. I'd guess, from the look of it, that it dates from Baron Haussmann's wholesale rebuilding of Paris in the 1850s and '60s.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Ricardo-vines.jpg - Source that says that Petit was the photographer?
 * The copy in the printed book is credited to him. I have clarified on the image page.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Stravinsky Igor Postcard-1910.jpg Can't be PD-70 with an unknown photographer. You need to clean up the licenses. (PD-1923 and some Russian template, I'd expect)
 * Amended licence details on the composite version.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Satie - This looks to have been published in the US, if I'm not mistaken. If so, the template is inaccurate. Also, I'd upload the source image separately, to be safe.
 * Yes, the MQ is an American publication. Amended.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ravel - I don't see anything saying that this was published, or that it's PD in the source (though if it is I can get the original resolution for you)
 * The detailed information chez the Bibliothèque nationale says "Date d'édition: 1910" and "Droits: domaine public". Licence details adjusted.  Tim riley  talk  
 * File:Rocamadour fda.jpg - I'm going to assume this is accurate, even without the EXIF data. As a village (and thus a collection of buildings) the individual structures are all de minimis, and so we don't need to worry about FOP.
 * File:W-Landowska2-crop.jpg is fine, though it might be worth working from the original size file (I'd be able to upload it later).
 * That's very kind of you – thank you.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Paris Opera full frontal architecture, May 2009.jpg - Should be fine, but when was the building completed? When did the architect die?
 * Completed 1875; architect was Charles Garnier (1825–1898)  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Pierre-Bernac-1968.jpg - Could use a category.
 * Mea culpa. Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church, Quidenham, Norfolk - Windows - geograph.org.uk - 1084822.jpg - When were the windows installed? As 2D works, FOP in Britain would not apply (mind, I highly doubt these are still copyrighted).
 * Alas, it looks to me that the church is less than 80 years old. Shall I have to remove the picture? There is this File:CarmélitesComp02.jpg alternative from a book published in France in 1906.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * this - When did the author die? Also, your mosaic uses PD-100, and not PD-70 like
 * It must be fully public domain, surely? Painted in 1827 (Schubert died in 1828), and even if the unknown painter was a young person he or she must have died more than 100 years ago.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Guillaume Apollinaire, 1902, Cologne.jpg - Again, anonymous works cannot be PD-70, unless they were created in like 1700 or so. When was this first published? If the 1960s, like the source, it's much too late.
 * Good old Commons! It always lets you down. I've uploaded a different photograph from a book published in France in 1918.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Emmanuel-Chabrier-1900-image.jpg - Fine
 * File:Mozart (unfinished) by Lange 1782.jpg - Could use a date
 * File:Tiresias.jpg - What's with using CGI here?
 * I'm sorry: you'll have to explain that. I know not of CGI.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Benjamin Britten, London Records 1968 publicity photo for Wikipedia crop.jpg - Fine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Prose comments:


 * Several of the sentences in the lead seem overly long.
 * Préludes - Should this be in italics or not?
 * This is often a problem. The MoS bids us not to italicise generic musical terms like symphony or concerto. The question is where to draw the line. Lots of composers wrote preludes (with or without the aigu) and I think it is probably generic.
 * the Sonata or the sonata?
 * Should be Sonata for Piano Duet, I think.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A habit of yours, this mixing of punctuation within quotes, and punctuation without it.
 * I was taught to put punct outside when a quote ended but was not the whole of a sentence, and to put it inside when they were. I don't say I always get this right. I'll review.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Poulenc's new compositions were not all in this serious vein; his incidental music to the play La Reine Margot, starring Yvonne Printemps, was pastiche 16th-century dance music, and became popular under the title Suite française. - This sentence is begging for a conjunction, I think
 * Looks right to me. Where do you think we need a conjunction?  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * These were music for Babar the Elephant, the Cello Sonata, the ballet Les Animaux modèles and the song cycle Banalités - And the last one is the one he started (but, one would assume, did not complete there?)
 * Indeed.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In 1943 he wrote a cantata for unaccompanied double choir, Figure humaine, setting eight of Éluard's poems. The work, ending in a "Hymn to Liberty", could not be given in France while the Nazis were in control; its first performance was broadcast from a BBC studio in London in March 1945, - Any word on how he got it out of the country?
 * Paris had been liberated in August 1944, and there were flights between there and London by early 1945.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The leading female role was taken by Denise Duval, who became the composer's favourite soprano, frequent recital partner and dedicatee of some of his music. - This feels like your jumping from a (lack of) popularity to the original performance
 * I'll ponder.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Stabat Mater, in memory of the painter Christian Bérard - what was their relationship?
 * Nothing out of the ordinary. Poulenc wrote an Elegy for Horn in memory of Dennis Brain, whom he hardly knew. He wasn't a particular friend of Pierre-Octave Ferroud, either, but was much moved by his death.
 * Any word as to how he overcame the difficulties with the Bernanos estate? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:59, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Nothing in the sources. I get the impression that FP's lawyer ground them down and they capitulated, but I can't say that for certain.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * viewed from a Parisian point of view - Can we avoid having two "views"
 * Definitely. Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It draws on a variety of stylistic sources: the first movement ends in a manner reminiscent of Balinese gamelan - out of pure curiosity (seeing as I've written several articles on Balinese dance recently)... where would he have had access to such music?
 * He certainly never went to Bali (unlike his friend Britten). My best guess would be the radio and/or the gramophone.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * a highly accomplished player - worth substituting "pianist" for "player"?
 * OK.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * perpetuum mobile - ?
 * Linked.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * tone-poems - link Symphonic poem? Also, is it tone-poems or tone poems?
 * Grove and the OED eschew the hyphen; the Oxford Dict of Music and Ox Companion to Music both include it. I'll go with Grove and the OED.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Link some of the Italian terms, if we have articles? Or other musical terms like Aubade?
 * On the "No surprises" principle of linking, I don't think we want a link to the generic Aubade article when the text implies that the link would be to FP's composition of that name.   Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * for female or children's voices - why the use of the term "female"?
 * As opposed to (adult) male voices: there are only soprano and alto lines in the score.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * one of the extremely rare operas - would "few" work better than "rare"?
 * The source uses the word "rare", and though I haven't used quotation marks I'd like to stick to Machart's phrase.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Leonard Bernstein, Milhaud, Eugene Ormandy, André Previn and Leopold Stokowski. - Milhaud stands out as he's the only one whose full name is not given. Perhaps refactor? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a matter of whether a duplicate link is justified here. The alternative, abandoning alphabetical order, doesn't appeal.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Marvellous input both on pictures and prose. I'll be going through both over the next few days. Thank you very much for the time and skill you've expended on the task.  Tim riley  talk    12:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've gone through these suggestions with much pleasure. Thank you very much for raising points that have improved the article.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Sorry, been a bit slow on this. Starting with

Comment
 * Lede
 * "solo piano music, chamber music, choral music" can the reps of the word music be avoided
 * Good idea. Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 2nd pp, first pp. I would phrase something like  "His wealthy family intended Poulenc for a business career, and did not permit him ..."
 * This is one of those sentences that unexpectedly give disproportionate trouble when one is writing. The present form is not the original version. The version you suggest is more concise and will do very nicely.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "with both" With each?
 * Done. (Not by me, I think, but done nonetheless.)
 * Early life
 * "He encouraged his pupil to compose, and later gave the premieres of three early Poulenc works." I imagine he conducted them.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
 * No – played.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

And the remainder. Very interesting article. Well done.
 * The conscription in January 1918, I would make it a little clearer this made Poulenc a First World War veteran (as was my paternal grandfather, though he never got nearer the front than Aberdeen Proving Grounds/
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You are not consistent on Les Six vs. "les Six". Also, there may be some issues with italitisation (see fn. 9, for example). Six of one?
 * True. The writer quoted in fn 9 doesn't italicise the term, but I haven't put in a direct quote, so I can reasonably italicise I think.  Tim riley  talk  
 * "romantically attached elsewhere" Is elsewhere really needed? It's implied
 * I think there's just the faint possibility that without the "elsewhere" it could be read as saying that she was romantically attracted to FP.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The comma following "suddenly" seems unneeded.
 * OK.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "Roger Nichols writes in Grove" before you referred to the words of Grove.  What's the rationale for naming the author on the second go?
 * The Grove article is in two parts. Myriam Chimènes wrote the life and Nichols wrote the works sections. I've now named MC at the first mention of Grove. Thank you very much for spotting this.   Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * First compositions
 * "Milhaud successfully suggested" given the following sentence I do not think the word "successfully" needed.
 * OK.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 1920s
 * "Farceur" and what is that when it's at home?
 * The rule that we should avoid links within quotations is so widely ignored that I think I can get away with linking from here to farce, and have amended accordingly.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 1940s
 * "In the early months of the war" That is late 1939?
 * And possibly early 1940: the sources are a bit vague.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Carmelites
 * "by his last concert with Bernac, who then retired from public performance." who retired? This is not clear.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Songs
 * The word "favoured" is used twice in close succession. I like the first use more than the second.
 * I shouldn't have spotted that in a month of Sundays! Thank you.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Choral
 * The Poulenc quote in the second paragraph does not have italics for the names of the various works.
 * It's how he wrote it, and I'm a bit dubious about italicising.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Opera
 * "as an untrained young man" consider cutting.
 * Considered, and done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Why does the Machart quote need inline citation?
 * Not with you, I'm afraid. It looks to me to be the usual form.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Reputation
 * Why no quotes in the Larner quote?
 * This was originally a long blockquote, but Brian B thought it too long for comfort, and I paraphrased much of it. In fact I'm going to recast it further anyway at the suggestion of Cg2p0B0u8m, above.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fn. 14
 * "régions" again wondering about italics, and the need to use the French word, as well. You might just want  to cut the descriptors to Alcase and Lorraine.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fn. 15
 * "Dialogues des Carmélites and La voix humaine received more than four times as many productions worldwide" I think there should be an "each" somewhere in there.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fn. 20
 * " notorious " hmm. Possibly a little strong.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these points. Attended to or not as above, with the one query about the Marchart quote outstanding.  Tim riley  talk    14:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Rounding into the home straight
,, , , and anyone else kind enough to take an interest. I have replied – satisfactorily, I hope – to your comments and suggestions. Any further points from you would be greatly appreciated before I close the PR and head off to FAC. No rush: I have deliberately taken this at a leisurely pace, to the benefit of the article and my bien-être.  Tim riley  talk    15:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Good! We seem to have come to a conclusion, and so, with grateful thanks to all who contributed here, I'm closing the peer review and heading off to FAC.  Tim riley  talk    21:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)