Wikipedia:Peer review/Gabriel Fauré/archive2

Gabriel Fauré
This peer review discussion has been closed. Apologies for troubling peer reviewers twice within two years, but having bothered you in advance of GAN in 2010 I take the liberty of bothering you again for a pre-FAC review of a much-expanded article. I got unexpected flak from a single editor here in re the related article on Fauré's piano music, and I'll be grateful if reviewers will particularly give their views on whether the present article is satisfactorily placed on the accessibility–technical continuum. But also, of course, on anything else. Tim riley (talk) 22:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Previous peer review

I wonder about recordings. If you do a search in the CHARM database (http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/discography/search/search_simple) you get 1,178 results, so there may be early recordings missing (you can extract it as a file). Also Kathleen's long-lost sister Marguerite made two records of the Ballade, one of which is earlier: http://hector.ucdavis.edu/Sdc/Recordings/Index/CompPage6.html I hope this helps. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment from Cg2p0B0u8m
 * You bet it helps! Thank you so much. I shall enjoy rummaging in the CHARM archives. (Do you suppose Kathleen Long longed for her long-lost sister?) Tim riley (talk) 11:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * CHARM was most instructive on early recordings. More than 100 by 1905! I have added accordingly. Thank you very much for this. Tim riley (talk) 10:59, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: I did a long review last time round; I think this will be a little shorter. The article is well-advanced towards FA quality, and needs but a little final polishing. Here are my comments and suggestions on the biographical parts; I will get to the music parts later. End of Part One. Brianboulton (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * Note 1 would be better at the end of, rather than in the middle of, Faure's birth & death dates.
 * Done. Tim riley (talk)
 * This sentence doesn't read well (I think it is overlong and overcomplicated in structure): "When he became successful in the 1890s holding the important posts of organist of the Église de la Madeleine and, from 1904, director of the Paris Conservatoire, he still lacked time for composing, retreating to the countryside in the summer holidays to concentrate on composition."
 * Redrawn. Tim riley (talk)
 * "Outside France, Fauré had many admirers in Britain..." Are the first two words really necessary? And the "many ... many" repetition in the sentence jars a bit
 * I added the "Outside France" as an afterthought, as the sudden mention of Britain looked rather odd without it. I've eliminated the repetition of "many". Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Early years
 * How do you actually pronounce "Faoure"? Rhymes with "Maori" or "Lowry" (L.S.) I suspect, but perhaps make that clear.
 * Alas, having told us that the local pronunciation is "Faoure" Nectoux doesn't offer any phonetic help such as a rhyme. He doesn't put an accent on the "e", but I can't believe this means it wasn't voiced – all final "e"s seem to be voiced in the South of France, whether accented or not. I have it in my mind's ear as trisyllabic: "Fa-oor-eh". Perhaps I should leave it out? Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Definitely leave it in, I'd say, because it's interesting. If someone quibbles about it at FAC we can always think again. Brianboulton (talk) 17:44, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Why was he sent to a foster-mother? This seems a strange step, if the family was not dysfunctional or impoverished, and there's no hint of that.
 * Common practice at the time, it seems from the sources, especially for an afterthought baby such as Fauré was, though he remained away from his family longer than was usual for reasons that are not clear. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * First musical appointments
 * Pedant's corner: there can only be one "first" of anything, so "first appointments is illogical. How to resolve without resorting to "early" again is, however, tricky.
 * I've retitled as "Organist and composer" Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I imagine there is a link for Croix de Guerre.
 * Not for that Croix de Guerre. The WP article is about a later award of the same name. I've left a hidden comment in the text to that effect. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "...during the Commune between March and May 1871" Recommended rephrase: "between March and May 1871 during the period of the Commune".
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Middle years
 * I think we should be told who the elaborately named Winnaretta de Scey-Montbéliard was, especially as her link article calls her by a different name. (I believe there is a sewing-machine connection, and are you sure about "Winnaretta"? My book calls her "Winnarette" (Steen, The Lives and Times of the Great Composers).
 * I've footnoted her aliases. "Winnaretta" is definitely correct; Steen is wrong. (I like his line, "Verlaine and Fauré were brought together by Winnarette Singer, whose father Isaac had patented a sewing machine" – one feels she is about to lock-stitch them together.)
 * Head of Paris Conservatoire
 * First paragraph, last line: is the word "repertoire" the right one in this context? The Conservatoire was not, after all, a performing body.
 * Excellent point. Redrawn. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think this is a reprise of a point I raised at the last PR, concerning the first mention of the famed Requiem. I really do think that a brief mention of its composition and early performances in the 1880s should be made in the appropriate chronological section, rather than encountering the work for the first time here.
 * I've added a couple of sentences at the appropriate chronological spot. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Last years and legacy
 * Maybe date the centenary tribute?
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Continuing...
 * Music
 * More pedantry, perhaps, but what is your standard for "surname-only" usage? We have "Schoenberg", yet "Jean-Philippe Rameau" and, of course, "Aaron Copland" even though he has been mentioned earlier. Do Edward and Desmond really warrant surname only on first mention?
 * Not pedantry in the least, and thank you for spotting Rameau: he was an oversight and is now shorn of his first names. Ed and Des don't really warrant surname only, but I am reluctant to inflict their combined 37 bluelinked characters on the poor reader's eyeball.
 * Penelope: it may make sense to reverse the order of mention of the Wexford and London revivals, for chronology and to end the section on an upbeat note. When was the London revival, incidentally?
 * Excellent. Done. I've added a note about the London production, which, I hadn't spotted until following up your question, was its London premiere. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Piano works: First paragraph lacks any citation. Second para should not begin with a pronoun.
 * Done. Tim riley (talk)
 * "Fauré's best-known orchestral works are the orchestral suites..." Can we avoid the close repetition (particularly as "orchestration" or "orchestrated" appears frequently in the remainder of the paragraph)?
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "His other chamber music includes..." Should this be "comprises", if the listing is complete?
 * It's by no means complete. There are several exquisite miniatures for chamber forces, such as the Sicilienne for cello and piano, the Elegy for the same instruments, the Berceuse for violin and piano, the Fantasie for flute and piano, and more besides. I might do an omnium gatherum article on his chamber music at some point, but I don't think these morceaux need to be mentioned in the present one. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Who made the the "ceaseless flow and restricted colour scheme..." observation? Likewise ""an extraordinary work by any standards..."? My practice is always to attribute verbatim critical comments.
 * Now attributed in the text. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

That does it. Clear and lucid as always, not much missed here. Onwards and upwards. Brianboulton (talk) 07:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for this. It will be a pleasing weekend task to work through your points. Tim riley (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these points. Some decided improvements arise from them, and I'm most grateful. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

MistyMorn comments: I think this is excellent material for the Main page of Wikipedia, both as regards subject matter, documentation and presentation. The length and level of detail seems to me to be about right, allowing smooth general reading while providing resources for further reading. The prose is polished, as we have come to expect from the principal editor, Tim Riley. Personally, I particularly appreciated the way in which this article on Fauré seems to thread a seamless course between the musical worlds of Saint-Saëns and Copland. The choice of illustrations and layout is also excellent, imo.
 * If forced to suggest a single general criticism, I might question whether the article could shed a little more light on the relation between Fauré and his broad musical public in France and elsewhere during his lifetime (the 1922 illustration and its caption is eloquent, btw).
 * I think I see what you mean, and I'll ponder. Any suggestions gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * My comment wasn't very fairly worded--largely in deference to the necessary rigour of PR here. My understanding is that Fauré was a key figure within French musical academia who by the end of his career had achieved la gloire (illustration). What I understand less is how popular Fauré's music was with the general public during his lifetime, and who—other than connoisseurs—was playing, singing and applauding that tricky piano music, and those refined songs and chamber works, for example. An unfair question to pose, perhaps, in the context of an encyclopaedic article such as this. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As regards the recordings, I feel it might just be worth mentioning that the success of Fauré's music on CD is reflected by several awards.
 * Happy to do so. Have you any examples I could cite? Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Gramophone awards: Airs, Gerard Souzay - Best Historical Vocal, 1991; Piano Quartets, Domus - Chamber, 1986; Piano Quintets, Domus - Chamber, 1995; String Quartet (+ Debussy, Ravel), Quatuor Ebène - Recording of the Year, 2009; Nocturnes, Germaine Thyssens-Valentin - Historic Reissue, 2002; Requiem, Rutter et al - Choral, 1985 . Among BBC Awards: String Quartet (+ Franck), Dante Quartet - Chamber, 2009. How is that? —MistyMorn (talk) 22:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's marvellous, and I shall shamelessly copy and paste. Tim riley (talk) 09:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding references, I wondered whether Graham Johnson's booklet notes to the Hyperion song edition (example) might be worthy of inclusion somewhere.
 * The great and good Johnson's masterly notes for the Hyperion edition have an independent existence, much expanded and revised, in his 2009 book Gabriel Fauré – The Songs and their Poets, which I have quoted and cited in the article. One can't, by the bye, link directly to the Hyperion booklets: the website blocks the link and one gets this message: "You appear to have followed a link which attempts to directly access a digital asset such as an MP3 or PDF file. For reasons that we hope would be obvious to you, Hyperion strives to protect certain digital assets, specifically, MP3 files, hi-resolution album images, and booklets/notes from potential abuse. You are welcome to access these things by navigating the Hyperion site in the normal way, but not to deep-link to them from other websites." Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for both these pieces of information, which I should have latched on to earlier. My apologies, —MistyMorn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

A couple of pedantic details:
 * Early years:' "...sixth child of... They had six children, of whom the composer was the youngest." Somehow seems a tad repetitive.
 * Indeed! I'd simply not spotted the repetition (how difficult it is to proof-read one's own prose!) and have now corrected this dereliction.
 * (Exasperatingly difficult, I agree. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC))
 * First musical appointments: "After France's defeat by Prussia there was a brief, bloody conflict within Paris during the Commune between March and May 1871.[28]" A slight loss of focus here, perhaps, and I wonder whether Duchen's support is strictly necessary.—MistyMorn (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Slightly recast as suggested above, but I want to make the point that all Hell broke loose in Paris and that Fauré got away from it; and think we must have a citation, surely? Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Another one going down to silly point... Just my limited understanding of WP & FA style perhaps, but my pedantic hat questions the need for a sentence about a renowned historical event to be referenced by the biography of a composer. Perhaps because the lede, at least, of the linked article is so brief? —MistyMorn (talk) 12:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * More matter for an April morning. Many thanks! I shall have an agreeable weekend going through your suggestions along with Brianboulton's, above. Tim riley (talk) 21:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for these points. If I could trouble you further apropos the first two I'd be in your debt. Tim riley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your kind reply, to which I'll try to respond tomorrow. One small query: Might some mention of Percy Grainger perhaps be appropriate? Just a thought. —MistyMorn (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You have me on the back foot. Grainger? No Fauré source known to me mentions him, and I am intrigued to know why you think of him in this context. Tim riley (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Tim. That ball really was wide of the mark. Fauré did meet Grainger in London in 1907; along with Grieg and Delius, Fauré was one of the few living composers with whom, I think, Grainger felt a miniaturist's affinity. But with Fauré no particular friendship developed. And my suggestion went straight to silly short leg... —MistyMorn (talk) 20:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Wehwalt. Sorry for the delay.  Here's what I have:


 * Lede:
 * "French republic" I would suggest capitalization and a pipe to French Third Republic.
 * " Outside France, Fauré had many admirers in Britain" May I suggest "In Britain, Fauré had many admirers in his lifetime, but his music took many more years to become widely accepted in other countries."
 * Biography
 * "display any musical talent" Strike "any"
 * "civil service, and his sister had a conventional life as the wife of a civil servant."
 * "His duties there were not demanding, but he wrote several canticles and motets, most of which have not survived." Why the but?  Unless it was done as part of his duties?  Clarify.
 * " to promote new French music" consider moving earlier in sentence.
 * "1877 was a significant year" is it usual to begin a sentence with a numeral?
 * " to which subordinate post " Suggest rephrase.
 * "pursued for the rest of his life" Maybe "indulged ..."
 * "horreur du domicile" can this be translated?
 * in the composer squares image, I suggest seeking the services of the Graphics Lab to see if they can play with the colours.
 * "Being written for outdoor performance," I find the "being" beginning somewhat informal.  Can you rephrase?
 * "partly brought on " brought on in part?
 * " including members of Les six, who were devoted to him" All six were?  or just some of them?  I suggest clarification here, if only a "the" before the "members"
 * "He declined, on the grounds " I would throw an "initially" in there
 * "Conservatoire reverted to its former conservatism" I'd avoid the use of similar words.
 * Music
 * "By contrast," What is being contrasted?
 * "presented in London in 1970 A student production " Problem here.
 * " during several decades in his long career"  This reads a bit awkwardly.
 * " Fauré fully emerged from any predecessor's shadow." This is opiniony enough it probably needs inline attribution.
 * Modern assessment
 * "French song, and that alongside the songs" too much song.

Well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these points. I'll enjoy working through them over the weekend. Tim riley (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think my little grey cells have run out! I see I have completely neglected to follow up the above points. Base ingratitude! I'll remedy this dereliction forthwith. Abject apologies Tim riley (talk) 13:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * All attended to. There wasn't one with which I disagreed, and I have acted on all your suggestions. I was particularly glad of the comment about Les six, as it reminded me to add, as I had earlier meant to, that Poulenc was the dissenting member of the six, and disliked Fauré's music. Hearty thanks! Tim riley (talk) 09:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I think all outstanding points are now dealt with, and I'm closing this peer review, with warmest thanks to the contributors. Tim riley (talk) 11:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)