Wikipedia:Peer review/Geoffrey (archbishop of York)/archive1

Geoffrey (archbishop of York)
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I'd like to nominate it at FAC at some point and am looking for feedback on the prose, polish, and comprehensibility to the non-specialist. He's a very ... funky ... guy and definitely one of the more interesting characters in medieval English history. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree about the interesting character part! A very enjoyable read, and very informative. Apart from a few examples below, I cannot imagine it would present any problems for the non-specialist. It looks like it would be a comfortable FA. With this in mind, here is a long list of nitpicks, but nothing major. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Lead
 * "The identity of his mother is unclear, for the one contemporary source that gives any information on her is hostile to Geoffrey. It is possible she was a woman named Ykenai.": A little wordy here; could the information on the hostile source be dropped from the lead (it does not really help to explain anything here) and have something like: "The only source of information on Geoffrey's mother is unreliable but suggests she was a woman named Ykenai."
 * "Upon the ascension of King Richard I of England,…" Wordy? What about "When Richard I became king…"
 * "probably in order to force a potential rival to the throne to become a priest and thus out of contention for the throne." A little hard to follow. Could this whole sentence be recast as: "When Richard I became king, he nominated Geoffrey as Archbishop of York, probably with the intention of removing him as a potential rival to the throne."
 * "promptly entered a dispute with William Longchamp, Richard's regent in England, when Geoffrey attempted to go to his province.": To a casual reader, this does not make sense. Why would going to his province cause a dispute?
 * "ordered Longchamp out of office, and Geoffrey was able to proceed to York.": It is not clear why Longchamp being in office would stop Geoffrey going to York.

Early life
 * "Geoffrey was probably born around 1152,[1] before his father married Eleanor of Aquitaine,[2] and probably was named after his grandfather, Geoffrey of Anjou, Henry's father." Flow? Leave out grandfather and replace it with Henry's father?
 * "The medieval chronicler Walter Map claimed she was a whore named Ykenai, and that he was not actually Henry's son." Maybe replace "he" with "Geoffrey".
 * "There is no evidence that Henry ever did anything other than accept his paternity." Awkward phrasing "accept his paternity". Maybe "accept his paternity of Geoffrey", or "accept he was Geoffrey's father."
 * "he was confirmed as bishop-elect in 1175": Of Lincoln?
 * "he at first was refused confirmation by Pope Alexander III, and went to Rome in October 1174 to secure confirmation, which happened before July 1175." confirmation … confirmation. And "which happened before July 1175" sounds slightly odd, although I understand why it is written like this. What about "which was given at some point before July 1175"?
 * "Peter of Blois wrote that a number of monarchs considered Geoffrey as a possible successor.": Which monarchs? For example, does this mean Henry, Richard and John or does it mean foreign monarchs?
 * "Geoffrey was the one son of Henry II's that was present at the death of the king."
 * "He did not attend the conference where Henry submitted to King Philip II of France right before Henry's death, unable to see his father's humiliation." Maybe put this before the previous sentence about Henry's death, unless the submission occurred on Henry's deathbed, and if not I would take out "shortly before he died" and replace it with a date. And possibly rephrase: "Unwilling to see his father's humiliation, he did not attend the conference at which Henry submitted to King Philip II of France."
 * "Henry made a bedside wish that Geoffrey…" Bedside suggests that Henry was beside Geoffrey's bed. Deathbed?
 * "…he used his father's seal to make appointments to York after Henry's death." Who is "he", as the subject of this sentence is Henry. If "he" is Geoffrey, the "and" linking to the deathbed sentence seems odd, as there is no obvious connection between the two sentences.

Archbishop
 * "Richard probably gave York to Geoffrey in order to make him become a full priest and eliminate a potential rival to the throne." Smooth slightly? What about "Richard probably appointed Geoffrey to York to ensure his ordination [correct word? I think the proper word would work best here.] as a priest, eliminating him as a potential rival to the throne."
 * "The cathedral chapter at York, however, disputed the election, claiming that because the Dean of York, Hubert Walter as well as some of the chapter had not been present, the election was not valid." Slight confusion of commas here. I feel there should be one after Walter, but that would make it more confusing. Could the sentence be recast to avoid? However, I can't think of a better way to do it at the moment.
 * "and had his estates taken by the king until Geoffrey submitted and became a priest." What about: "and his estates were taken by the king until Geoffrey submitted and became a priest"?
 * "His ordination as a priest took place"
 * "and then went to York, where he refused…" Missing he? It currently reads that his ordination went to York. Not sure about the connection between the events again here, so not sure about and. But maybe I'm being too fussy.
 * "The king, however, made Geoffrey allow the royal appointments…": What about "However, the king forced Geoffrey to allow…"
 * "and excommunicated Henry Marshal and Burchard in retaliation for a dispute during a church service": What took place during the church service, the excommunication or the dispute?
 * "This led Richard to insist on payment of the fine, which the archbishop-elect was unable to do because Hugh du Puiset, who was Justiciar, impeded attempts to collect money for the fine." fine … fine. And the previous paragraph suggests that the fine had been paid.
 * "The pope stepped into the dispute and ratified the election, thus enabling a reconciliation between the king and the archbishop at Tours in June." Not clear how this would end the dispute, as it was not over the election. How did the pope's actions improve matters?
 * "Longchamp claimed that Geoffrey had not sworn fealty to Richard, but this was likely just an excuse to eliminate a rival." A rival of the king or Longchamp?
 * "with the opposition led by Henry Marshal, Burchard du Puiset, and Roger of London. The chapter objected to his having given a large part of York's treasury towards Richard's ransom…" Were these three men not Richard's appointments? Nice loyalty! And "his having" is a bit clunky.
 * "He strengthened the defences…" Presumably Geoffrey, but Geoffrey and Hugh were subjects of the previous sentence.
 * "This forced the archbishop to go to Rome to deal with the appeals of his various antagonists, who capitulated shortly after Geoffrey's arrival." This suggests to me that his rivals were in Rome.

Under John
 * "But it was a short peace, as disputes over the appointments in the diocese of York broke out, but Geoffrey managed to gain the support of Pope Innocent in some of the disputes and thus he was able to secure the appointment of a few of his own candidates." Very long sentence and contains two buts.
 * "but in the meantime the archbishop had fled"
 * The last paragraph contains a scary number of "also"s.
 * "His loyalty to his father was also an important part of his legacy." Not quite sure about this. Legacy suggests something that carried on after his death, but loyalty to his father could not carry on as his father was also dead. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, thank you SOO much for the very helpful. I shall get to most of these in the next few days. Thanks again! Ealdgyth - Talk 21:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)