Wikipedia:Peer review/Georg Solti/archive1

Georg Solti


This peer review discussion has been closed. What, will the line stretch out to the crack of doom? This is yet another of my efforts on classical music's great and good. As usual, comments on balance, prose, proportion and anything else will be gratefully received. My first Solti concert was more than forty years ago, and I have admired him (not in all repertoire, it's true) ever since. I'd like him to have the best article that can be managed. (One punctuation point: I have made a small stand for British punctuation rather than American in such phrases as "In 1961 Solti went...", avoiding the comma evidently normal in American usage.) Tim riley (talk) 19:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: First instalment, to end of Munich and Frankfurt section. Mainly trivial:-


 * Lead
 * "...conducting a season of Russian ballet in London at the Royal Opera House." I'd avoid "conducting" in favour of "and conducted"
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "By "remaking many of his earlier recordings" do you mean that he assembled the original forces and re-recorded the pieces, or that he simply made new recordings of pieces he had recorded earlier, during his "intense" period? If the latter, that's not really "remaking".
 * Indeed. Redrawn. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Early life
 * What is "Vérmező utca"? I couldn't find it in List of districts in Budapest
 * It comes up if you google it. It appears to be a street (I've an idea "utca" is Hungarian for "street") but whether (like, e.g. Knightsbridge) it also refers to an area I do not know. I got it from the ODNB, which says "Solti ... was born György Stern in Vérmezö utca, in the Buda district of Budapest." Oddly, the Independent article I cited in re his funeral says his birthplace is in "Maros Utca, a quiet backstreet down behind the castle mound in Buda". Should I leave it out, and just say "in the Buda district of Budapest", do you think? Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "I learnt to swim with her". Oddly placed, if he meant that literally. Or did he mean that he became musically proficient with her.
 * The latter, I'm sure. I didn't boggle at it when I read and commandeered this quote, but each time I re-read it in my draft it looked odder and odder. I am reluctant to prune it. I think I might leave it for now and see if other reviewers agree that it looks odd. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "In pursuit of a musical career..." At this stage, from what you've said about his lack of diligence in his piano studies, I doubt that Solti aged 10 was actually pursuing a music career; wasn't he simply doing his parents' bidding?
 * Pruned. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There's no mention of his completing his studies at the Franz Liszt Academy, or graduating. He was 18 at the most when he joined the Hungarian State Opera; this seems an early age to leave the academy. Is there any information on this?
 * He graduated all right. It seems that in the early 20th century and earlier music colleges took students of a younger age than they do now (cf Barbirolli at the RAM). Solti has a charming phrase in his memoirs "[I] wrote a string quartet as a graduation piece, thereby ending my career as a composer." I've added a phrase to the following section. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Répétiteur
 * Not an adequately descriptive section title, since the prose goes well beyond Solti's répétiteur role.
 * I thought the same when I was writing it, but I can't think of anything that covers it without being woolly, such as "First musical appointments". Any suggestions will be most gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC) Later – I've settled for "Pianist and conductor", but am still open to suggestions for improvement. Tim riley (talk) 09:26, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Follows writes" Who he? Also, I wonder if this entirely factual information is worthy of a quote and formal attribution.
 * Oops! Blitzed Follows (he's the ODNB biographer) and rephrased without quotes.
 * "including restricting": I always try to avoid the dreaded "...ing ...ing" (especially with a third "ing" four words on.
 * Redrawn. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * On the "ing" question, two clauses in the next sentence begin, respectively, "making" and "conducting". The prose would read more smoothly if "making" became "where he made" . In the same sentence, the words "in the orchestra pit" seem unnecessary (where else would they be?)
 * All done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Munich and Frankfurt
 * Give a date for his appointment as musical director of the Bavarian State Opera. The link article gives 1946, but we should be more precise.
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Second paragraph should begin "Before he took up the Munich appointment..." Clarify that the Decca contract was not an alternative to the conducting post - it could be read that way at present.
 * Yes indeed. Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "...but for political reasons his position there was never secure." Again for clarity I would say "his position at the Bavarian State Opera was never secure".
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Again it would be helpful if the date of the Frankfurt could be pinpointed.
 * Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe name one or two of the "rising young Americans"?
 * Excellent idea. Done. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Mention of the Glyndebourne Don Giovanni looks odd in the middle of a paragraph otherwise devoted to Solti's American activities.
 * I've added Edinburgh and Hamburg Opera to balance the US references. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I will continue. I have a busy weekend ahead with my daughters, so my Wiki time will be rationed for a couple of days. Brianboulton (talk) 23:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thank you. Plenty for me to be getting on with here, and no hurry whatever for your second batch until you have world enough and time. Tim riley (talk) 23:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * All your first batch of comments now dealt with. Some decided improvements there – thank you. I look forward to Round Two whenever it fits into your schedule. Tim riley (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

A few more points to complete my review:- No real problems with these points, but you may wish to consider them. Subject to a bit of tweaking the article looks pretty much ready for FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Covent Garden
 * "The company's repertory in the 1960s combined the standard operatic works and less familiar pieces." You are the expert in the finer points of usage, but something tells me it should be "combined ... with" rather than "combined ... and"
 * Touché! I concur. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "By the end of his time as music director at Covent Garden Solti had conducted the company in 33 operas by 13 composers." I see the list of operas in the footnote, but would it be possible to break this down and show, e.g. how many of the works were new to the company, how many were new productions, whether any were world premieres? Also, it is not clear from the text when "the end of his time" was; can this be clarified?
 * On the first point, yes. It will take some time, but I'll certainly do it before going to FAC. On the second, I'll redraw. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Doesn't "remarry" mean marry again the same person?
 * The OED allows either use, but I'll redraw for clarity's sake. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Chicago Symphony
 * "He introduced new works commissioned for the orchestra, such as Lutosławski's Third Symphony, and Tippett's Fourth Symphony, dedicated to Solti, and Byzantium, an orchestral song-cycle, premiered by Solti and the orchestra with Jessye Norman." The Byzantium song cycle is by Michael Tippett, but this isn't obvious from the text. In fact this whole sentence needs a bit of rephrasing - three "ands" at the moment. I suggest: "He introduced new works commissioned for the orchestra, such as Lutosławski's Third Symphony, and Tippett's Fourth Symphony which the composer dedicated to Solti.  Another new work was Tippet's and Byzantium, an orchestral song-cycle, premiered by Solti and the orchestra with the soprano Jessye Norman."
 * Much better. Thank you. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "scheduled to be in" → "scheduled for"?
 * Neutral on this. Happy to go with your wording. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Later years
 * "...he formed the World Orchestra for Peace, which consisted of 81 musicians from 40 nations." A little more detail (this was presumably a temporary ensemble, but when/where/how often did it perform?) would be helpful.
 * I agree, and will add a few words accordingly. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe the sentence about the tribute recording should be placed after rather than before his death?
 * Yes, better. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Honours and memorials
 * I found the recitation of honours in the firat paragraph a little numbing (shades of the Huntingdonshire cabmen). Perhaps prune it and list a sample?
 * Gracious me! I didn't imagine anyone would actually read it. I'll pick out the plums and footnote the rest. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * When was the "Solti Garden" thus named?
 * Good point. I'll check and add. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm most grateful for these points, with all of which I agree. I am in your debt, as usual. Happy to repay at next Boulton peer review, naturally. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by Wehwalt
 * Lede:
 * I wonder if you should not have some mention of Solti's top accomplishments in the first paragraph.
 * I'm not good at leads, and am always open to suggestions. This is good, and I'll redraw accordingly.
 * ". His career was interrupted by the rise of the Nazis, and as a Jew he fled the increasingly restrictive anti-semitic laws in 1938, and conducted a season of Russian ballet in London at the Royal Opera House." too many ands.
 * Drat! This is in response to BB's suggestion, above. I'll ponder a third way. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * " He became a German citizen in 1953." You may wish to vary the phrasing used with the British acquisition, then.
 * Good point. I'll vary the latter. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It may help in the final paragraph of lede if you refer to him mellowing personally, professionally, or both.
 * Right. Will do. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Early years
 * "Solti supported himself" Well, he paid for his own musical education, anyway. I doubt he paid the landlord.
 * He lived with his parents while at the Academey, but I take your point. I'll reword. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Pianist and conductor
 * "was a more fruitful preparation" Consider eliminating the "a"
 * It certainly doesn't need the article gramatically, but it feels right to me with one. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Munich and Frankfurt
 * "denazification" Perhaps "denazification proceedings against them".
 * Much better. Will do. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you not mention a few of the greats who were in that recorded Ring cycle? Flagstad, certainly.
 * Will do, with pleasure. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Covent Garden
 * The bit about LA seems a bit disjointed, you might want to take a look at it
 * I agree. I'll ponder how to make it flow better. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Later years
 * "reinterpretations like that of Patrice Chéreau (Bayreuth 1976) " Can this not be handled better than the use of parentheses, especially since you mention Bayreuth immediately previously?
 * Definitely. Will do. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dudley Moore. Perhaps "actor and composer Dudley Moore"?
 * Yes. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "conducted his last symphony concert." Perhaps "conducted what proved to be his last ..." You have already mentioned that he had additional concerts planned, so it obviously wasn't known to be that at the time.
 * I pondered this when writing it, and now I look again I agree with you. It shall be changed. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Honours and memorials.
 * You probably won't get away with the sculpture park, but perhaps you'll be in with a chance.
 * Very nice job, which the few comments also speaks to.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these comments (and your kind remarks). I'll enjoy working through these points tomorrow. Tim riley (talk) 18:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with all but one of your suggestions, and I am most grateful to you, as always, for your unblinking editorial eye. Many thanks! Happy to reciprocate at PR/FAC, as I need hardly say. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Two comments I had have already been touched upon by Wehwalt, so the only drive-by comments I can offer are typo related:
 * Comments by Cassianto
 * Ref consistency - period after ref. 68
 * Missing period after footnote 4.

Nothing else obvious to me. A fascinating article about a man, whom I'm embarrassed to say, I knew very little about. -- Cassianto (talk) 23:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these, and for your kind words. I'll add the punctuation forthwith. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)