Wikipedia:Peer review/George Formby/archive1

George Formby
This peer review discussion has been closed. George Formby was a music hall star, singer-songwriter, comedian and film star—and an unlikely one at that. While still trying to find his place on screen, one film producer thought him "too stupid to play the bad guy and too ugly to play the hero". The producer reckoned without the ukulele, the cheeky grin and the ingrained need of the British to have double entendre and smut in its cultural output. This has undergone a major re-write recently and an FAC is hoped for in the near future. – SchroCat (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC) & Cassianto talk 22:12, 28 July 2014


 * Images (if I don't say anything, it's okay)
 * File:Montage of George Formby, snr.png - How on Earth is this individual's lifespan only one day?
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I know you're just playing it safe, but do you think File:Montage of George Formby, snr.png and File:George Formby with friends – April 1915.JPG are actually still copyrighted in the UK?
 * Probably not, but I always seem to get it wrong when I drop it into Commons, so I've played safe here. - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * File:George Formby - early image when still George Hoy.jpg - You're gonna have a heck of a time arguing that this is not replaceable by a free image.
 * He only played the John Willie character for a few years after the 1921 death of his father, so we're up at the tail end of the free stuff here. I'm still looking for something that is clearly pre-1923, but there is much stuff that is undated and/or unpublished - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * File:George Hoy (Formby) ad from 1921.jpg - One would think that this is corporately owned, and thus free in the US and Britain (no individual author)
 * I tried that with this, and that argument wasn't considered good enough grounds for being free (something I still strongly dispute for that image), but again I've gone for being safe in the face of some questionable decisions where I'm not sure of my ground! - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * File:Basil Dean.jpg - If I'm not mistaken there's a template especially for the Bain collection. Might want to use it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep - now added. - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks Crisco - much appreciated as always, and I hope to be able to replace the John Willie image with something suitable. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have been vacant for much of this owing to real life, but I would like to thank you for investing your time in this review nonetheless. -- Cassianto talk 11:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

While Crisco's ukelele gently weeps

 * exclusively from his father's act, including using the same songs, jokes and characters. - Is "using" necessary here?
 * He started his recording career in 1926 and, from 1934, he increasingly worked in film to become a major star by the late 1930s and 1940s, becoming the UK's highest-paid entertainer and most popular entertainer during those decades. - Become become become become *to the tune of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz*. (I'd split this while we're at it. It gives the impression he worked to become big, not he became big because of his work
 * (ENSA) - since you don't use this acronym in the lead, why have it in the lead?
 * It's more recognisable for most readers in the acronym form, rather than the extended form, so I think it's more helpful in the short form. - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * win through against some form of villainy, winning - Again
 * Formby's biographer, Jeffrey Richards, considers that Formby - Perhaps the second mention can be "the actor" or "the entertainer"?
 * on people such as the Beatles, - technically the Beatles are a band... entertainers?
 * Since his death Formby has been the subject of five biographies, two television specials, and the subject of two works of public sculpture in England. - Such a subject-ive statement
 * After briefly attending school—at which he did not prosper, and had not learnt to read or write— - Not quite sure "and had not learnt to read or write" is the right tense
 * Why not merge the lone sentence about Formby Snr's death into the following section?
 * compere - link?
 * to mollify her Dean raised Formby's salary for the latter film to £25,000. - So Beryl, as manager, held on to Formby's cash. I can't really imagine how this would have mollified her otherwise. "My husband screwed that ninny you call a film star!" "Well, he's getting paid well enough for it, ain't he?"
 * I'm not sure she held onto his cash as manager, but more as his wife! It seems an odd way to be mollified, but that's what the sources tell us! - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * In the spring of 1938, - Per WP:SEASONS, "early 1938" is probably better
 * performing Idle Jack in Dick Whittington. - can we say "performing" a character, or is "portraying" better?
 * the king - Link George VI, or replace with King George VI?
 * the Palestine - isn't it just Palestine?
 * Depends. I think—although I'm happy to be told otherwise—that "Palestine" is the common name for the State of Palestine, which has only been around since 1988, as opposed to the geographical region of "the Palestine"
 * Ah, makes sense. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I must tell you otherwise. "Palestine" has been around, under that name, since Greek and Roman times, although its boundaries have varied. Most recently, between 1922 and 1948 it was administered by Britain under a League of Nations mandate, after which it disappeared as a political, though not geographical, entity until the aspirational declaration of a Palestinian state in 1988 (a state still waiting to be born). "The Palestine" is incorrect. The whole region of Lebanon, Syria Jordan, Palestine and Cyprus is sometimes refered to as "The Levant", but Palestine alone should be just "Palestine". Brianboulton (talk) 08:57, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the clarification, Brian: "the" has been removed. - SchroCat (talk) 10:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Overall a pleasant read. Be back tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * travelling 25,000 miles in the process and returning to England in October. The couple travelled in a Ford Mercury that Formby had purchased from the racing driver Sir Malcolm Campbell, which had been converted to sleep two in the back. - Repeating travelling so close together... is there another way?
 * who he had met in North Africa, - whom, I presume
 * He did do on 17 August in a one day visit to the bridges, where he gave nine shows, all close to the front line, standing beside a sandbag wall, ready to jump into a slit trench in case of problems; much of the time his audience were in foxholes. - possible to cut back on the number of clauses?
 * All done, except where commented otherwise, but happy to hear any further comments on those points. - SchroCat (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Zimbabwe - Overlinking?
 * the summer of 1954 - WP:SEASONS again
 * Formby returned to South Africa for a tour, and then a ten-day tour of Canada. - Tour tour de force... could we nix a tour?
 * the run was cut short in May when the production was playing in Brighton to small audiences. - Doesn't feel like a particularly strong sentence. You go into more detail after this; I'd suggest letting the detail come first, then mention how the tour was cut short
 * in addition to Beside the Seaside, his only other work - if we use "in addition to", then isn't "other" unnecessary? In addition already includes an exception
 * forty-a-day smoking habit - might want to be clear that this is cigarettes/cigars and not packs (just in case)
 * Formby's final year of work was 1960. That May he recording his final session of songs, - can we finalize a final, nix it?
 * One of the acts in the show was Yana, - Yana who?
 * She was a one-name performer, a la Cher, Madonna or Twiggy. - SchroCat (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Might be worth leaving a hidden note. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Done - note x. - SchroCat (talk) 04:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Harry Scott—George's valet and factotum—was to receive £5,000, while the rest was to go to Howson - why the shift to "George"?
 * Mr Justice Ormrod - This is obviously a BrE thing, but is "Mr Justic Omrod" necessary, rather than "Justice Roger Ormrod" or something with his given name?
 * I think that would be quite alien to British readers – it certainly jars with me. Unfortunately Bencherlite isn't around to check with, but I'll pop up the batsignal for to see if he has a view on how we should/could display the name. - SchroCat (talk) 04:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Mr Justice Ormrod" is the correct British format. Quaint, but necessary (see this usage in a rather good WP article, Horatio Bottomley, recently promoted). Brianboulton (talk) 08:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * H.J. Igoe, writing in The Catholic Herald, thinks - you're shifting tenses between sentences. The paragraph afterwards is also present, whereas the preceding paragraph is past tense
 * and complicated musical syncopated style = would this be "and complicated syncopated musical style"?
 * although both those performers used pathos and innocence which Formby avoided - didn't your sources just finish saying that Formby got away with talking about sex because he had an innocent air? Also, should there be a comma after innocence?
 * There are two public statues of Formby. - as of?
 * The most recent work to be published - again, as of? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Excellent stuff: many thanks for aloof this: it's hugely helpful, and I hope I've done justice to your suggestions. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 22:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ditto here as well. Cassianto talk 11:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Brianboulton
I'm just starting my review. I noticed, however, the spelling "ukelele". As far as I know the only spelling is "ukulele", and I've altered to this throughout. If by some chance there is an accepted alternative spelling known amongst music hall historians, then I apologise and you can ask me to change it back.

Detailed comments to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Mea culpa, I'm afraid, although in my defence the OED lists both, but with ukulele being the more common standard. It could have been worse: Plum Wodehouse spells it "ukalele"... - SchroCat (talk) 17:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * For the encouragement of doubt, I see from the OED's list of sources that Dorothy Sayers used "ukelele", and Rupert Brooke spelled it "eukaleli". Hope this makes things less clear. –  Tim riley  talk    17:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC) 17:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * First batch of comments
 * Lead


 * "In 1923 he made two career-changing decisions – he purchased a ukulele, and he married a fellow-performer, Beryl Ingham, who became his manager and transformed his act, insisting he dressed on stage in black tie and introducing the ukulele on stage." Repetition of "on stage" is a bit bumpy, also: "dressed in a black tie" – and nothing else? No wonder he was such a hit. Could be "formally dressed"? I think, however, the sentence would be best split  at "his act", followed by (suggested wording): "She insisted that he appeared on stage formally dressed, and introduced the ukulele to his performance"
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "On film the media historian Brian McFarlane writes that Formby portrayed..." Surely: "The media historian Brian McFarlane writes that on film, Formby portrayed..."
 * Swapped. Cassianto talk 23:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "After the war his career declined, and he toured the Commonwealth, and continued to appear in variety and pantomime." I'm not sure of the first "and"; it would perhaps read better as "although"
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * New paragraphs should not start with pronouns.
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not necessary to describe Richards as "the academic". "Formby's biographer Jeffrey Richards" will do fine.
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My view is that verbatim quotes should be used sparingly, if at all, in the lead. You have several, including the somewhat trite (sorry) ""his passing was genuinely and widely mourned". I'd be inclined to drop the last-mentioned, and briefly paraphrase the others – if you want the exact quotations thy should be in the main body of the article.
 * I've dropped the trite one and re-worked all but one, which I can't bring myself to lose the final one! I'm happy to be pushed to get rid of that one too, if you feel it doesn't fit properly. - SchroCat (talk) 09:03, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Early life: 1904–21


 * "for clarity" unnecessary.
 * Removed - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My feeling is that the abbreviation "Sr." for "senior" is an Americanism. Certainly I don't recall seeing it in English texts, and the online references I've seen to Formby senior call him "Senior", "Sen." or Snr". I haven't searched far and wide, so I may be off-track with this, but if you do wish to adopt the Sr form you will need to lose the full stop, as that's definitely against BritEng practice.
 * I got rid of one full stop and will look for more; I would be more inclined to use Snr. Cassianto talk 23:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've cleared the others out and moved the GF Snr article to the BrEng version too. - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "identified as" → "identified variously as"
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * On the matter of young George's education, it would be interesting to know how his parents were able to sidestep the legal requirements for compulsory elementary educution, in force since 1880. Maybe the law  wasn't strictly enforced.
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "considered a lost" → "considered lost"
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "with the last-known copy destroyed in 1940" → "the last-known copy having been destroyed in 1940"
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Beginning a stage career: 1921–34

More will follow Brianboulton (talk) 22:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "The performance prompted Formby decided to follow in his father's profession..." – something wrong there
 * Indeed there is, not now though. Cassianto talk 23:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "As he had never seen his father perform live, Formby found the imitation difficult and had to learn his father's act, songs and jokes". It would be interesting to know how he learned them, and who from?
 * Clarified - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "In the show he was billed as George Hoy—the surname was his mother's maiden name—explaining later that he did not want the Formby name to appear in small print". The sentence goes wrong after the probably unnecessary insertion. Suggested rephrase: "In the show he was billed as George Hoy, using his mother's maiden name—he explained later that he did not want the Formby name to appear in small print".
 * Done. Cassianto talk 23:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "his mother would support him financially" – conditional tense inappropriate: "his mother  supported him financially"
 * Swapped. Cassianto talk 23:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "still is father's material" – that ain't right for sure.
 * Nope - although now tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "The second big event..." – I'm not sure you've defined what was the first; taking up the ukulele, adopting the Formby name, dropping the John Willie character? Perhaps replace "The second big event " with "Another significant event..."
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd also be inclined to reconstruct the rest of the sentence: "...was his appearance in Castleford, West Yorkshire, on the same bill as Beryl Ingham, the Accrington-born champion clogdancer and actress who had won the All England Step Dancing title at the age of 11." (you should link Castleford)
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "the ceremony was kept from Eliza" – no need for the passive voice. "...they kept the ceremony from Eliza"
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "had to appear as witnesses" → "appeared as witnesses"
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "Upon telling her the news" → "upon hearing the news"
 * Swapped as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "and to take lessons in how to play the banjo properly". This is the first mention of the banjo, which should be linked. Had he been playing it before, not properly, or was this his introduction to the instrument?
 * Tweaked to show ukaleli, or similar - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for all the changes so far: I look forward to further comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

It's slow work (I tend to mull over every line) and I'm halfway through the war/Ensa section. Here are some further comments:
 * Continuing
 * Burgeoning film career: 1934–40


 * I can't help feeling that quoting Dean's reply to Beryl verbatim is unnecessary, in an encylopaedia article, especially as this is a "reputed" comment rather than confirmed. A magazine biog might be a different matter, but it seems out of place here.
 * "and while it did not impress the critics" - the "and" doesn't seem right in view of what's gone before. Maybe delete the "and", & replace the preceding comma with a semicolon? Worth trying, anyhow.
 * We don't normally parade the credentials of biographers, thus "the cultural historian" can be safely deleted.
 * "because of her action" → "because of her actions"?
 * I'd replace the semicolon before "regarding the star of the film" with a full stop. It's really a separate sentence.
 * "Sill and all" is presumably a typo (but if I were an editor and one of my reviewers wrote "he doesn't do too bad" I'd sack him on the spot).
 * ""comparatively bland", but "with the exception..." The "but" is somewhat intrusive. Why not: "comparatively bland ... with the exception..." – although you may be averse to ellipses.
 * The problem is that I've reversed the text from the source: "a clutch of songs which—with the exception of the one which would become immortal—were comparatively bland", which is why we have the slightly awkward form here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "who directed five of Formby's films" → "who went on to direct five of Formby's films"?
 * The sentence beginning "Although Beryl was furious..." has a colon followed by a semicolon, which is rather overdoing it. Personally I'd put a full stop after "fruitless", delete the unnecessary "to her", and begin a fresh sentence with "Dean informed her..."
 * "In early 1938, discussions with Dean over the next film, It's in the Air, were troubled when he informed the Formbys that Banks would return to direct and Walsh would again be the leading lady". A bit heavy footed: suggest "In early 1938, Dean informed the Formbys that in the next film, It's in the Air, Banks would return to direct and Walsh would again be the leading lady". This is a complete sentence, and should not end with a semicolon.
 * "Kimmins returned to directorial duties" - "continued his directorial duties" would be more accurate as he had directed Formby's two previous films
 * Shouldn't "Rolls-Royce" be hyphenated?
 * Just to clarify: Formby received £10 a week from ENSA, but "between 1938 and 1942 he was the highest-paid entertainer in Britain", so this was clearly not his sole source of income.
 * Second World War: service with ENSA


 * I've slightly altered the first sentence, but I'm still not altogether happy. Dean co-founded ENSA, rather than "took the position" of head. I also think the last sentence of the previous section ought to be absorbed into this paragraph, or else we are reading about Formby joining ENSA twice.
 * How does it look now? Bringing Formby's joining down into the section allows a bit more of a re-write. - SchroCat (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I imagine the success of Let George Do It! in Moscow and the US came a little later than 1940. The Soviet Union was Hitler's ally until June 1941, and the US was neutral until December 1941
 * trawlermen" is one word
 * "He and Beryl also set up their own, such the OK Club for Kids, whose aim was to provide cigarettes for Yorkshire soldiers" – word missing after "own"?
 * "Cinema-goers" requires hyphen
 * "Cinema-goers had begun to tire of war films, and his next film..." Avoid if possible the "film" repetition, e.g. "his next venture..."
 * It's not clear whether the gold cufflinks were a gift from the king.

More tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 23:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


 * No problem on the speed: there's absolutely no deadline on this at all and we're more than happy to wait for your comments. All covered, bar the one point. Thanks again, and we look forward to the next batch. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

(Rest of War section)
 * Continuing
 * The description "the academic" is fairly meaningless to readers. I realise you want to avoid readers (or reviewers) asking "who is Murphy?", but "the academic" still leaves that question open. As an alternative you could say: "Robert Murphy, in his study of wartime British cinema..." or similar words that leave no doubt as to who he was. Look for other examples in the article that could be similarly treated, e.g. Mundy in the next paragraph
 * "desire to parts" → "desire for parts" – and the words "to them" are unnecessary
 * "The reviewer for The Times was certainly critical, and wrote that the story was "confused" and they considered..." Delete the editorial "was certainly critical, and", and also the unwanted "they"
 * "Isle so Man"? Come, come – and should be linked
 * The 1667 law said that theatrical entertainment on Sundays was illegal, not "unethical" (ethics is not a matter of law)
 * References to "a strike" seem inappropriate. A strike is a withdrawal of labour until a demand or set of demands is met. The 60 were not striking, merely complying with the LDOS interpretation of the law, with whatever motive or motives. It took Formby to kick them out of their spineless attitude.
 * "Baz Kerhsaw" is actually Baz Kershaw – and another "academic". You should also make it clearer that Baz's comments were made 60+ years after the film's release.
 * "Bret" has been mentioned before; should have his full name at first mention, and a brief description, e.g. "Formby's biographer"
 * I'm curious about the DMPC episode. What made the committee think that the songs mentioned were "sympathetic to the enemy"? This seems extraordinary without further explanation.
 * I've added what I can from the sources, although this is only Bret's opinion, rather than anything more tangible, but I've flagged it as such. - SchroCat (talk) 13:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Pipelink Normandy
 * What is meant by "his first official concert"?
 * "He did do on 17 August..."? Did do?? (maybe "did so")
 * "one day visit" → "one-day visit"
 * In 1945 "Sri Lanka" was called "Ceylon".
 * Post-war career


 * In the first line you refer to "one of Formby's live television programmes". We are out of chronology here, since BBC TV only resumed broadcasting on 7 June 1946. We could do with some context: when did Formby decide to appear on television, how often, etc? TV was then a very new medium, available to only a small proportion of the population. The fact that Formby adopted it is quite significant – more so, I venture, than the question of whether all or part of a particular song was banned by the BBC.
 * Sadly the sources don't cover that aspect, and the mention of the TV appearance (about which I can't find a record elsewhere) is only mentioned in the light of the song. - SchroCat (talk) 11:51, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * "Bret differs in his opinion, commenting that post-war cinema tastes changed, and audiences wanted intrigue, suspense and romance through the films of James Mason, Stewart Granger, David Niven and Laurence Olivier". I'd alter the wording slightly, as the respective views of Fisher and Bret are not mutually exclusive. Thus: "Bret believes that post-war   audiences wanted intrigue, suspense and romance, through the films of such as James Mason, Stewart Granger, David Niven and Laurence Olivier."
 * "it was there that he leant of his OBE which he had been awarded in the 1946 King's Birthday Honours". Needs rephrasing (OBEs are not awarded, they are by appointments. Suggest: "while there, he learned of his appointment as OBE in the 1946 King's Birthday Honours". Note the complex linking of OBE
 * On Beryl's "piss off" remark, my earlier reservation about demotic quotes in encyclopaedia articles applies – but since she said it to Dr. Malan, I say leave it in! Let someone else object.
 * Emile Littler surely deserves a redlink
 * Give year 1951 after "September"
 * Did The Times actually say ""could not have conceivably have detected a spark of wit..." or have you inadvertently introduced a stray "have"? Also, did the Times quote say "either the lyrics of the dialogue"?

The rest by Sunday for sure. Brianboulton (talk) 21:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Excellent stuff so far: I've covered all of the last batch except the one point (on his move into television) where the sources are not helpful to us. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:17, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * And finally...
 * Health problems and intermittent work: 1952–60

"Between October and December 1953" – better as "From October to December 1953..." (unless he only appeared in November)
 * "sufficiently enough" → "sufficiently"
 * "It was not a success, and closed after 138 performances". Two things: 138 performances seems to indicate at least a degree of success, rather than the implied failure. But I more interested to know how they got 138 performances into 13 weeks (no Sundays, so two performances every day!)
 * "He again announced his retirement": in view of the fact that he didn't, it might be as well to add "but continued to work"
 * "...still allowed Formby time to appear in his annual Christmas pantomime Babes in the Wood at the Liverpool Empire Theatre." It reads as though he appeared in this pantomime, at that theatre, every year, yet it's not been mentioned before.
 * "Formby's Scottish accent" – probably "Formby's attempted Scottish accent"?
 * "Hull, Blackpool and Birmingham" – and brighton too, evidently
 * "the production played to small audiences Brighton, and the run was cut short as a result." Something missing?
 * I think "the singer Yana", rather than just "Yana" which could mean anything.
 * "Beryl's illness was worsening, and the strain "was wearing ... [Formby] down ... He needed distance and an escape",[184] and took the part of Mr Wu in Aladdin in Bristol, having turned down a more lucrative part in Blackpool." A very awkwardly punctuated sentence, with the double-ellipsis quote inserted. I'd try  a little paraphrasing: "Beryl's illness was worsening;  worn down by the strain, and feeling the need to escape, Formby took the part of Mr Wu in Aladdin in Bristol, having turned down a more lucrative part in Blackpool.
 * Final months: a new romance, death and subsequent family issues


 * "given the last rites on his arrival at hospital": there has been no previous mention of Formby's catholicism. apart from his father's burial place. I don't suggest you make an issue of this, but it may be helpful to say "given the   last rites  of the Catholic Church on his arrival at hospital."
 * "Formby impulsively moved the date up to 8 March, before word could leak out to Formby's family." Who/what constituted "the Formby family" at this point (this is made clearer later), and what was he afraid would "leak out"? The engagement had, after all, been announced publicly.
 * Hmmm. That whole sentence was an addition by a well-meaning but misguided IP. Back to previous version, including an additional semi colon, which I'll probably remove later anyway. - SchroCat (talk) 09:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Screen persona and technique


 * "the academic" (Geoff King)
 * On an edition of The South Bank Show about Formby, Richards comments..." Date the show, and say what it was, e.g. "On an edition of ITV's The South Bank Show'' in November 1992, Richards commented that Formby "embodied..." etc (in any case you need to use the past tense when quoting from a TV programme)
 * "Formby's screen and stage persona of innocence and simplicity was not seen as ignorance or stupidity, although Basil Dean thought that Formby "didn't act gormless as many successful Lancashire comedians have done, he was gormless". The second part of the sentence seems to contradict the first."
 * Another pair of "academics"
 * Legacy


 * "jamming" could be pipe-linked to Jam session, though really you should rephrase the sentence, which is dubiously grammatical (and what's that grocer's apostrophe doing in "ukulele's"?). I recommend: "The rest of the Beatles were also fans—they improvised with ukuleles during the recording breaks on Let It Be[217]—and Formby's influence can be heard in the song "Her Majesty".
 * Suggested reconstruction of third paragraph: "As of 2014 there are two public statues of Formby. The first, by the Manx artist Amanda Barton, is in Douglas, Isle of Man, and shows him leaning on a lamp-post and dressed in the motorcycle leathers of a TT racer. Barton was also commissioned to provide a second statue for the Lancashire town of Wigan, which was unveiled in September 2007 in the town's Grand Arcade shopping centre."
 * You say Formby has been the subject of five biographies, but mention only four. What was the fifth?
 * "and images of him were affixed..." If the tram is still operating, this should be "are affixed". Incidentally, what is a "trolley tower"?

I'm done and dusted, except for two general points:
 * Overuse of semicolon: I agree that there's an element of pot and kettle in this comment, but my counter indicates 67 semicolons in the article – and that's after I zapped a few during my review reading. That is way too many, and I strongly advise you to reduce these by about two-thirds. Many of them could be replaced by full stops, a few more by the use of conjunctions, others by light rephrasing.
 * I'm not certain that all the prose flows smoothly. I haven't time to read through again, but one thing you could do is to read it aloud – to your beloved or to yourself if no one wants to listen – and see how it "sounds". This is a tip passed to me in my early FAC days by the late, great Wadewitz, and I found it very useful.

I will continue to follow the article's fortunes with interest. Brianboulton (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have been vacant for much of this owing to real life. Thanks so much Brian! --  Cassianto talk 11:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Haven't found much to object to as yet (through Beginning) no doubt because it is well-trodden ground. It looks quite good.
 * Lede
 * "He sang light, comical songs, usually playing the ukulele or banjolele, on stage, screen and record, and became the UK's highest-paid entertainer." The "on stage, screen, and record" clause seems to leap out at me as out of place. Just my opinion, but what about "On stage, screen and record, he sang light, comical songs, usually playing the ukulele or banjolele, and became the UK's highest-paid entertainer."
 * You could probably get by with "he" instead of "Formby" in the first sentence of the second paragraph.
 * I could, but I get growled at by Mssrs Boulton and Riley for having the first reference in a new paragraph as "he", rather than the subject's name! Happy to swap over if you think we can be a bit more flexible in this instance. - SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this is an exception. It's very clear who you are talking about.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, done as suggested - SchroCat (talk) 16:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The second sentence in the second paragraph might be usefully split.
 * "became the UK's highest-paid entertainer" why tell us twice in identical language?
 * In the final sentence, why is the distinction drawn between "focus" and "subject"? It might be more effective just to say he was the subject of all those thing.
 * Beginning
 * "a name which angered Eliza and Formby even more" than what? Likely, I suppose, his using Snr's act, but this needs to be made a bit clearer.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * All tweaked, per your suggestions, with the exception of the he/Formby comment, but happy to swap out if you still feel it appropraite. Many thanks for looking into this, and I look forward to further comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

More:


 * Burgeoning
 * I think you should split the second sentence at the semicolon. I should add that you may be using semicolons to excess.  (that being said I like them too)
 * Yes, we like them too, but too much of a good thing is bad I suppose; now done... oops! Cassianto talk 16:32, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * For those unfamiliar with the Manx event, I would throw in "motorcycle" somewhere
 * Added at the first mention of the TT - SchroCat (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Filming was troubled" Can one of the uses of "set" be changed?
 * Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "success in a relevant field (in horse racing, the TT Races, as a spy or a policeman)" perhaps "in a field unfamiliar to him" if the source will stretch. Are the TT Races the Tourist Trophy?  Race or Races? And if so where does horse racing come into it?
 * Tweaked to cover the first part. I thinks "TT Races" is the more commons generic name (although yes, he was in one TT Race) and I've clarified with the abbreviation bracketed at the first mention. Horse racing was in Come On George! - SchroCat (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Come On George! was released to troops serving in France before being released in Britain.[67]" perhaps the first "released" could be "shown" or else change to "screened for troops .."
 * Yes, done. - SchroCat (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


 * 2nd WW
 * "performed to members" Perhaps a Britishism I'm unfamiliar with, but I would have expected "performed for members"
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "that it brought about Formby's first international release," perhaps "that the film became Formby's ..."
 * Yep, done - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * " and of the film, "a box office certainty"." not sure what the "of" is doing.
 * Me neither. Removed - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there any known reaction of the Royals to "When I'm Cleaning Windows?" A pipe to Royal Command Performance might be useful. And I did read the footnote.
 * "Murphy, however, writes that the criticism "had more to do with the inadequate vehicles which he subsequently appeared in than in any diminution of his personal popularity."[100]" I'm not sure why the "however". The quote seems to agree with what is said immediately before.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "he greatly admired the seemingly tireless work they did" I would cut "seemingly". Even people who do tireless work get tired.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 25,000 miles. You should probably put a convert template here.  Check for other distance mentions as well.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "The couple travelled in a Ford Mercury" They got to Malta that way? Shades of James Bond!
 * Clarified (although the sources don't actually say he made the journey underwater!) - SchroCat (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Postwar
 * It's unclear what problems "Blackpool Rock" was causing. I don't mean how it was suggestive, that's fairly obvious (I do know what it looks like, I've been to Blackpool and other English shore resorts) I mean, was he performing it over the air or not?  What was the repercussion?
 * "unofficially recognised" perhaps "without official recognition"
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "a coast-to-coast tour through 19 cities of Canada" perhaps "a 19 city coast-to-coast Canadian tour"
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "where he announced his retirement" from home? Where was home by then?  If it is Lytham St Annes, I must say that you introduce it rather late (not counting the caption)
 * Health problems
 * If he went to South Africa for a tour, by then Apartheid was in place and I imagine he would have had to play to segregated audiences. This seems a bit inconsistent with his prior stand.
 * " the pain—[167][168]" I think the dash follows the footnotes per MOS.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:53, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Formby's Scottish accent " since he was not Scottish, perhaps "Formby's attempt at a Scottish accent". or similar
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "the production played to small audiences Brighton," ?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Time of your Life" caps?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Final months
 * "further heart attack" used twice in close succession
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Persona
 * "Much of the innocence in his performances was around sex, and the use double entendres within his songs" some tweaking here.
 * That's all I have. Most enjoyable and educational, and quite well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:35, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for all these: I think between us we have cleared up the more straightforward ones, and will go back to the sources on a couple of others. Thanks again: your time and effort are very much appreciated. Cheers! - SchroCat (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Wehwalt. I'm sorry that I have been vacant for much of this owing to real life, but your comments look spot on! Cassianto talk 11:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I especially enjoyed the Beatles bit.  Never been a huge fan, but presence at a Beatles trivia on board ship (we had a fanatic on our team who got us most of the 29 out of 30 we won with) has caused me to reconsider a bit. Just was playing "The Long and Winding Road".--Wehwalt (talk) 17:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's be thankful it wasn't Yellow submarine! I love the Beatles (but dislike them all as solo performers).  I wonder whether our  knew of this link?   Cassianto talk 23:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley
I extravagantly enjoyed this article. I think you have done Formby (and Beryl) full justice. On to FAC, and please let me know when it arrives there. –  Tim riley  talk    10:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * "and he married fellow-performer Beryl Ingham" – an isolated outbreak of the tabloidese false title here; "his" or "a" before "fellow" would eliminate the problem.
 * Tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Beginning a stage career: 1921–34
 * "Whilst there, they visited" – the usual bleat from me about "whilst" – a fustian word, to which "while" is greatly superior
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "at a registry office in Wigan" – there are some pedantic souls (probably the same ones who get in a lather about split infinitives) who insist that this should be "register" not "registry" office. "Register offices" is certainly what they are officially known as, and perhaps it would be prudent to follow the official line.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Although he had a further recording session in October 1929, recording two songs for Dominion Records" – that's a lot of "record"s: perhaps make the second "recording" "performing"?
 * Done. Cassianto talk 14:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "with Beryl acting as compere" – if you think "register office" is pedantic just wait for this – a personess of the female persuasion is never a "compere" but is a "commère". Obsolete now, perhaps but applicable to 1932: the OED quotes Wodehouse: "He watched a revue... A snow-white commère and a compère in a mauve flannel suit looked on at the brawl", and as late as 1958, The Listener: "Commère was Margaret Lockwood".
 * Done. Cassianto talk 14:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The chronology of the last sentence of this para puzzles me. By "the winter 1932 season" do you mean winter 1932–33? If so, having finished the run of the panto circa Feb 1933 he went on tour afterwards – i.e. spring or later 1933. The six words after the semicolon are redundant, surely? Or should 1933 be 1934 before the full stop?
 * Oops - '34 - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Burgeoning film career: 1934–40
 * "Jo Botting, writing for the British Film Institute, described it" – this reads as though you're quoting a contemporary review, and I think "describes" would make it clear that Botting's is a retrospective assessment.
 * Done. I also took the liberty of removing a "described/describes repetition.  Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "an odd and not particularly loveable character" – did Sir Michael (or Mr Sweet) really spell "lovable" with the redundant "e" in the middle?
 * I can't imagine he did, but I shall leave for this for my to check up on.  Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Formby's Lancashire character for the film; the scriptwriter employed for the film was" – repeated "for the film": suggest you might just blitz "employed for the film" completely.
 * Deleted. Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "raised Formby's salary for the latter film to £25,000" – is "salary" quite the right word here? A salary suggests a regular payment, but if the £25,000 was just for this film, as the wording suggests, then it's a fee or some such.
 * Salary →fee. Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Second World War: service with ENSA
 * "this time combatting fifth columnists" – I reckon "combating" has only one "t", and more to the point so do the OED and Chambers.
 * Your sharp eye astonishes me; now done. Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Formby issued a statement" – two things here: first, you want a punctuation mark after "statement" – either a comma or colon according to personal taste; secondly, when you say he issued a statement – to whom? A public press statement in 1942 could not conceivably have contained the word "bloody" surely? (I like his style, though!)
 * No sources, so I am unable to answer this., over to you.  Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't make it too clear, sadly: "George opted to attack the LDOS head-on with what was for him an unusually hard-hitting statement..." - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Post-war career: 1946–52
 * "Sir Emile Littler" – not Sir till 1974. (I'm astonished that he's a red link. I may have to run up something quick and bodged to turn the link blue. Later: now done – not so much quick and dirty as supersonic and filthy but it will suffice for now.)
 * Nice work! Littler cropped up in Robey but I never got round to starting a stub off for him.  Cassianto talk 14:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Now stripped! Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Final months: a new romance, death and subsequent family issues
 * Subheading: See Plain Words – "Issue: This word has a very wide range of proper meanings as a noun, and should not be made to do any more work – the work, for instance of subject, topic, consideration and dispute". I think the last of these is what you want here.
 * I have gone for "dispute". Ok SC?
 * Good for me! - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Senile reminiscence: I have – or think I have – a memory of an ageing Formby in an armchair talking straight to camera introducing a series of TV broadcasts of his old films. My memory tells me that he mentioned Beryl in the past tense, which if true (if mind you) narrows the time slot to early 1961. I cannot vouch for any of this: I would have been nine at the time, and 53 years have elapsed since then. In any case you may not think it of interest, but I just mention it. Later: Pray ignore this. I've had a good rummage in the archives and can find nothing that matches what my memory is telling me. Having read the full Guardian review I have a horrible suspicion that my poor old brain was trying to recall the very Friday Show you mention.
 * Almost certainly was - and he does refer to Beryl as if she was already dead. I'll email you the link to the (copyright infringing) YouTube copy of the show. - SchroCat (talk) 11:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Legacy
 * "Of the five biographies, the most recent work to be published was…" – I know you'll keep an eye on it but this bumps up against WP:RELTIME if not watched in the future.
 * Probably best to delete altogether. Cassianto talk 23:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I've re-worked it, as it would have left four only, which is what wrists were slapped for earlier. - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Notes
 * d. – "the age of majority was 21, and Formby needed permission to marry" – but he was only 20. How did he get the necessary permission if his mother didn't know about the marriage? Were uncles and aunts able to give consent behind a parent's back?
 * Unknown - and the sources are unhelpful on this detail. - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * As the note raises a question that we can't answer I'd give serious consideration to deleting it.  Tim riley  talk    08:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * q. – "Beryl called one group of extras "The Five Queens" – not extras, according to the WP article on the film, as each of the five is listed there as a character. Perhaps "supporting actors"?
 * Done. - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * i. – if I had been responsible for this whole marvellous re-write, I should have included this fact in the main text: it is very much to the point and shows the Georges VI and Formby more in touch with Britain than Auntie BBC was.
 * Would you have it in the text where the note is, or would you drop it into the 1940a? - SchroCat (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely the former, I think, but don't let me press you into moving it unless you agree with me.  Tim riley  talk    08:42, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Closing the PR, with huge thanks to one and all for your excellent thoughts, edits and suggestions. There are atill a few points from the reviews we need to address, as well as another copyedit or two for us to do. Thanks agains. - SchroCat (talk) 11:35, 5 August 2014 (UTC) & Cassianto talk 11:34, 5 August 2014 (UTC)