Wikipedia:Peer review/Green Knight/archive1

Green Knight
This article just passed for GA status, and we're shooting for FA. Look for copyedit, format, comprehension, and whatever else you think it may need before becoming a candidate. Wrad 02:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Review by Awadewit
A very nice article. Most of my comments address prose problems.

On content: I would say a bit more. Maybe something on the audience for the poems. Also, you say the dates are conjectural - can you give some of the conjectures and source them? Awadewit Talk 21:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder if it is possible to give some historical background to these poems - approximate dates; where they were supposedly written; and their relationship to the culture at large - who were they written for and why?
 * Wouldn't that be better for each poem's individual article? Wrad 03:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about extensive information - just the basics. Right now, the poems are kind of in a historical vacuum for the uninformed reader. Awadewit Talk 08:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So basics like general time period, Celtic culture, etc? Wrad 19:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly - imagine an undergraduate coming to the page who has a smidgen of knowledge regarding English literature. What basic information might they need to situate the piece of literature in their timeline of Chaucer to Shakespeare to Dickens to American Idol? Just positioning it for them in reference to things like Chaucer, major medieval historical events (with dates) and providing some details of the culture surrounding the text really helps people get a handle on how this literature was used. Seriously, people might actually think it was published in thousands of copies and everyone went to a bookstore and bought it if you don't tell them differently. (I once saw a student ask why Benjamin Franklin couldn't spell better in his autobiography - they simply didn't know that spelling hadn't been standardized yet. Everything has to be explained.) Awadewit Talk 19:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did some work on this, adding a few sentences to put them in context. Does it need some more?--Cúchullain t/ c 21:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I adjusted this more in preparation for a shrinking "Role in Literature" section. Sources should follow soon. Wrad 23:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ sources added. Wrad 21:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

✅
 * The plot summary almost outweighs the interpretation here, thus if there is nothing else to add to the interpretation, I would suggest trying to cut down on the summary.

On prose:
 * He is Bercilak de Hautdesert[1] in Sir Gawain, while The Greene Knight names him "Bredbeddle". - This sentence is confusing. Why not just "He is called Bercilak de Hautdesert in Sir Gawain and Bredbeddle in The Greene Knight."
 * Tolkein described him as being "as vivid and concrete as any image in literature." Other scholars have called him the "most difficult character" to interpret in his most famous poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. His overall role in Arthurian literature includes being a judge and tester of knights, and thus he is both terrifying, friendly, and somewhat mysterious to other characters. - It would seem that the description of the Knight should come before the interpretation. Leads are particularly important for those unfamiliar with a subject, so they should be constructed with such readers particularly in mind.
 * In Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Bercilak is transformed into the Green Knight by Morgan le Fay, an enemy of King Arthur, in order to test his court. In the Greene Knight he is transformed by another woman for the same purpose. In both stories he sends his wife to seduce Gawain as a further test. - The difference between le Fay and the "other woman" does not seem vital for a lead. What about simply say that the character is transformed into the Knight by a woman in order to test Arthur's court. Also, adding something more about that test would be helpful.
 * The Knight is similar to many other characters in literature, before and after, but is the only one of them to be completely green (at least in the Sir Gawain poem). - This is a very odd sentence. Usually one does not compare a character to the entirety of literature. Could you come up with a more reasonable comparison or simply leave that part of the sentence out? You could just say that the Knight is unique in literature by virtue of his greenness, but even that seems like a too large a claim to be supportable.
 * The name 'Bertilak' seems to derive from 'bachlach', a Celtic word meaning 'churl'. - Unfortunately, I think that you are going to have to define "churl" for the reader or link it to wiktionary.
 * He is described as being completely green: skin, hair, dress, and everything. - the "and everything" has a slangy ring to it; How about "He is described as being completely green, from his skin to his hair to his dress" or something like that.
 * He is holding a sprig of holly, which the poet points out is green at this time of year. - the poet or the narrator of the poem?
 * Beyond his greenness, he is described as very comely, strong, and well built, and having long hair. - not a parallel structure
 * The next time we meet the Knight, he is in the form of Bercilak de Hautedesert, lord of a large castle, who freely invites Gawain in as he journeys to the Green Chapel. - "we" constructions are generally frowned upon at wikipedia
 * In the end, however, he fails in accepting a green girdle from the lady, and not giving it to Bercilak. - awkward; perhaps "he fails when he accepts...and does not give it to..."?
 * Again, Gawain falters in his knighthood in accepting a girdle from her, and the Green Knight's purpose is fulfilled in a small sense. - "knighthood" does not seem the right word here - perhaps something along the line of honor or duty?
 * The earliest story with the beheading game element is the Middle Irish tale Bricriu's Feast. - "beheading game element" is an awkward phrase
 * Stories of the medieval period portray it as representing love and the amorous in life,[12] and the base, natural desires of man - awkward phrasing; perhaps "Stories of the medieval period use it to represent..." or "In the medieval period, green often represented.."
 * Despite the many characters similar to him, the Green Knight is the first of his parallels to be green. - "parallels" is awkward diction
 * In one interpretation, it is thought that the Green Knight, as the "Lord of Hades," has come to challenge the noble knights of King Arthur's court. - wordy; how about "In one interpretation, the Green Knight..."
 * Another possible interpretation of the Green Knight is to view him as a fusion of these two deities, at once representing both good and evil and life and death as self-proliferating cycles. - wordy
 * The final meeting at the Green Chapel has led many scholars to draw religious connections. - connections between what and what?
 * On the top of the garland is a quane, or a group of bright flowers. At the end of a ceremony, the quayne is taken off the garland and placed at the top of the church tower. - consistent spelling
 * Due to the nature imagery associated with the Green Knight, scholars have seen the ceremony as possibly deriving from his famous beheading in the Gawain poem, the quane removal being symbolic of the loss of the knight's head. - wordy
 * I've tried to work on some of this.--Cúchullain t/ c 04:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

On organization: ✅ I think. Wrad 00:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC) ✅ erased the section. Wrad 00:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It would seem that much of the information in the first paragraph of the "Interpretations" section should go under "Significance of the colour green," perhaps subheaded as "Interpretations."
 * Why do you list only one book in the "References"? I would suggest that you either list all of the sources you used in the article (for ease of consultation by the reader) or change it into a "Further Reading" section. Right now, it is unclear what that section's purpose is.

Various and sundry:
 * Footnote 8 is unclear to me. Is it a book?
 * ✅ fixed Wrad 03:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * All of the footnotes need to be formatted the same way (11-15, 17-21 for example, are different than the rest and a bit confusing because of the lack of italics).
 * ✅ fixed Wrad 23:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Might you wikilink a bit more in the article, particularly Sir Gawain, which is only linked in the lead? Awadewit Talk 11:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)