Wikipedia:Peer review/Gustav Holst/archive1

Gustav Holst
This peer review discussion has been closed. Brianboulton and I have overhauled this article over the past few weeks. (I bagged the easy bits and craftily left BB with the hard work.) We think we have now got the piece to the threshold of FAC, and we should greatly welcome comments on prose, structure, comprehensiveness, images or indeed anything else. Holst was a lovely, gentle man, yet his music is sometimes fierce and at other times withdrawn and austere – we hope we have done all aspects of him justice in the updated article, and we look forward to your comments. – Tim riley (talk) 16:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment

I do not intend to review this article - but I've noticed that his date of birth is not included in the body of the article as I believe it should be. Also, perhaps it would help the reader if Gustav's age is specified at a few more points - possible places are when his mother died, when he started composing and when he left school. Aa77zz (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this. We don't normally repeat the d.o.b. in the main text, but there is definitely something to be said for the occasional genethliac milestone in the article. Shall ponder. Tim riley (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Later: I have added one such age milestone, mentioning his age when unwanted fame suddenly fell on him. Tim riley (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat.

A fair amount covered on a quick read through, with a closer and complete reading to follow. I've made a few minor tweaks: please feel free to revert. A few minor comments below in what I find to be a beautifully crafted article. It's interesting, seems to cover all the main aspects and is eminently readable.

Music
 * There's quite a few "suggests" in this section: Matthews suggests on four occasions; Dickinson thrice and Short twice
 * That's careless drafting on my part. I've knocked out most of them, reads better now, hopefully. Brianboulton (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Indian period
 * Regarded by Head: who and what?
 * His description got inadvertently edited out in one of my prose blitzes. Now restored. Brianboulton (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Maturity
 * West country - > West Country (caps and wl)
 * Of course. Brianboulton (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

More to follow shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 05:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking forward to it. Boulton, Riley and Co (of 70 St Mary Axe, EC3) will hold a general meeting when we have all your comments. Tim riley (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have done the few fixes indicated. Thanks indeed for picking these up. Brianboulton (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Further comments from Schrocat

Apologies for the delay—RL has bitten into my time a little more recently.


 * Lead
 * "Apart from The Planets and a handful of other works, his music was generally neglected until the CD era from the 1980s onward, when much of his output became widely available on recordings." This reads awkwardly; perhaps "...his music was generally neglected until the 1980s, after which much of his output became widely available." (Partly because it's not just CDs, but digital downloads too; partly because "available on recordings" sounds a little... clunky)
 * Well, yes, but the point we seek to make is that it is recordings (on CD, MP3 or what have you) by which much of GH's work is now known. Live performances of anything but The Planets, the PF Ballet and one or two others are still awfully rare. I don't think just "widely available" quite makes this important distinction. Would "...when most of his output was recorded." do the trick?
 * Most admirably, I would think! (I'd sort of agree that performances are rare, but only for the larger pieces: some of the smaller pieces are better known, although it may not be appreciated that the piece that is being listened to and admired is actually one of Holst's!) - SchroCat (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Childhood and youth
 * "organ voluntaries, songs, anthems and a Symphony in C minor". Is the capital needed?
 * No, I think probably not. Nor the key, now I look again. Shall prune. Tim riley (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

That's all from me, I think, although I'll take another read through in a few days' time and see if there is anything else lurking in there that I've missed. - SchroCat (talk) 18:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these extra points. Any more arising from your further read-through will be gladly received. Tim riley (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comments by Wehwalt
 * Lede
 * I think the third sentence of the first paragraph works better if moved one sentence earlier. However, the former second sentence might need some adjusting.
 * Happy with that. Shall do. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Later: User:Alfietucker makes the valid point that the third sentence (as it was after I acted on the above) stresses one influence and omits at least two other equally important ones. He has pruned accordingly, and I, think, rightly. Tim riley (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Destined". Perhaps a bit too poetic.  Determined?
 * Not quite that, but point well taken and I'll rephrase.
 * "when in the CD era, when much of his output became widely available on recordings." Too many whens. Perhaps, "when much of his output became available on CD."
 * Yes, indeed. Shall do. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Biography
 * Is quite so much family background material needed? Especially as none of them are notable (or at least, no one has created articles).
 * I actually omitted his only WP'd ancestor, Theodor von Holst as irrelevant. As to the other ancestors it seems to me that there's an important fact in each sentence – GH's national roots, family move to UK, cheeky "von" and so on. But having written this stuff I am naturally attached to it. Brian, any thoughts? Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The section amounts to about 3.5 percent of the article. It gives useful information about the family's musical heritage, and is of sufficient interest, I believe, to justify its retention. Brianboulton (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "which made playing the piano a problem." perhaps "problematical" or "difficult" instead of "a problem"?
 * Thank you. "Difficult" is definitely better, I think. Shall do. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it worth stating who wrote the words for ''Lansdowne Castle"?
 * A local worthy. I thought about naming him, but it seemed like clutter, and I adhere to that view having looked again. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "In 1903 Adolph Holst died". You should probably include the appropriate (or appropriated) "von".
 * Good grief, yes! Mea culpa. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "lament for Morris, who had died three years before Holst began work on the piece." You should probably state either the year of Morris's death or of the beginning of composition.
 * Excellent advice. Will do. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "He turned down honours offered to him" When I saw this, I thought of official honours, but judging by the note, no, or at least not exclusively. I venture "honours and awards offered to him"?
 * Good, yes. The benefit of a fresh eye! Thank you. Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you should mention the date of death, or at least month and year, in the paragraph in which you relate his death.
 * We haven't, as far as I can remember, done so for earlier FA'd composers. I have no rooted antipathy, however. Sir B, how say you? Tim riley (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In fact, we seem always to have included this information. See Frederick Delius, Neville Cardus,  Edward Elgar, Walton, too.  This seems right to me, otherwise readers have to refer back to the lead to get the date. Let's put it in.Brianboulton (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Right ho. Tim riley (talk) 08:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Music
 * " Kālidāsa" when you mention this before, it is without the lines over the "a"s
 * Fixed. Brianboulton (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You are inconsistent as to what tense you refer to Imogen
 * I've made a few changes. In general the literary present enables the use of the present tense in, for example, "Imogen acknowledges", "Imogen refers to..." etc, since even though she is no more, her work lives on. I am less happy with "Imogen believes...", as that carries the definite idea that she is still living. I have left that as "Imogen believed..." Brianboulton (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Egdon Heath (1927) is …"The Brook Green Suite (1932), written for the orchestra of St Paul's School, was …" I see an inconsistency here too.
 * Legacy
 * "Short cites other English composers whose work is in debt to Holst". I think that either the composers should owe a debt to Holst, or their work should owe a debt to Holst's work, but not mix them.
 * There seems to be a rogue close quote after Appalachian Spring". Forgive me for not removing it myself, but I'm doing this offline.
 * These three fixes all made. Brianboulton (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellently done, as always.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:17, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for these comments. I have fixed or responded to those in the parts of the text that I mainly wrote, and will leave Tim to cope with the others. Brianboulton (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This and that from Cassianto

FA winning content as usual, take these on board if you wish...
 * Lead
 * "Despite his father's doubts he pursued a career as a composer," -- Did his father doubt his abilities or did he not want him to take up composition? Reading slightly further down, we say "Adolph tried to steer his son away from composition, hoping that he would have a career as a pianist." I think saying "doubt" is a bit ambiguous.
 * I think Holst senior's doubts were about the financial viability of a career as a composer (and how right he proved to be), rather than about his son's abilities. I will leave to Tim any required tweaking. Brianboulton (talk)
 * That's my impression, too. But the sources are not explicit. It may just be that Adolph wanted Gustav to follow in his footsteps. I don't think we can in conscience nuance the text one way or another. Changing "doubts" to "reservations" is fair enough, though, and I will. Tim riley (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

 Cassianto Talk   08:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Family background
 * Do we need to link Hollywood?
 * I'm in two minds. Everybody knows what Hollywood means, and I don't think inviting readers to click away from this page is all that helpful here. But happy to go with a consensus now or at FAC.
 * Composer and teacher
 * "Towards the end of the nineteenth century British musical circles..." -- Is this missing a comma after century?
 * I think perhaps it is. American usage always has a comma in such a construction; British usage has one only when it is necessary to avoid confusion, and I rather believe this is a case in point. Thank you for that. Tim riley (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Holst was a keen rambler. He walked extensively in England, Italy, and France and Algeria." -- and, and?
 * Why does one never spot one's own drafting errors? Thank you – shall amend. Tim riley (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * World War I
 * "At the outbreak of World War I, Holst tried to enlist but was rejected as unfit for military service" -- "...but was rejected for being unfit for military service"
 * I think I prefer the existing phrasing. Tim riley (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. I can see it now, (and I think I too prefer the former!). Useless bit of information for you: I used to live in Thaxted and have had a tour of his house. It was beautiful inside and with very little modernisation.  --   Cassianto Talk   20:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)