Wikipedia:Peer review/Hair (musical)/archive1

===Hair (musical)===

This peer review discussion has been closed. Over the past year or so, this article has come from an unreferenced, listy mess to a well-cited, -written, and -organized article. We'd like some comments regarding the prose, the organization, and the comprehensivity of the article. Any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, &mdash;  Music  Maker  5376  02:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It is still open and located at Peer review/Hair (musical)/archive1.

I haven't read the article in great detail yet, but I see that the web citations are not formatted properly and are missing author(s), publisher, access date info, etc. You may find it helpful to use the web citation template for guidance, but it isn't necessary as long as it's standardized and the pertinent info is present. Ref formatting seems to be one of the first things that is picked on at FAC if you're headed in that direction. :) I may come back with more detailed comments later on, but that's a start.  María ( habla  con migo ) 19:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment from


 * Thanks, Maria. As I was fixing some of the things from the automated check, I noticed much the same thing.  I'll likely do that tonight after work.  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  19:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Done I found a couple of places that still need citations, but they're formatted. &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  01:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Additional comments
I haven't much experience with writing musical theatre related articles, so feel free to point out if anything I suggest or comment upon goes against precedence. Overall, this article is well written and correctly formatted. It also seems to be comprehensive enough; I'm a fan of the show and the film and sometimes I get "I Got Life" and "Manchester England" stuck in my head for days, but that's as far as my knowledge goes. :) *Nice job formatting the refs! *In the Los Angeles Times, Rado describes: this took place in the past, so it should be past tense: "described". *Is it "US" or "U.S."?  Is the serial comma being used or not?  I don't believe there's a preference for both instances, as long as it's consistent throughout the article.  Also, is it "The Tribe" as mentioned in the lead, or is it the "tribe"? A very interesting read!  All bases seem to be covered, although there are several things in the lead that need to be mentioned in the article per WP:LEAD; the musical adaptation, for example, is referred to as "successful" in the lead but no mention of its reception is in the body.  Be-in is mentioned in the lead and in the plot summary, but it's not defined; although it is linked to in both cases, a little explanation would be helpful.  I could see how some people would complain about the plot summary being overly detailed and long, and although it doesn't necessarily bug me, there are some minor details that could be cut or abbreviated. I believe that's it, though; best of luck! Let me know if you need any additional comments or further explanation. María ( habla con migo ) 16:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It was actually a lot of fun....  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  17:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of the lead is somewhat redundant, repeating "rock musical" and "the musical" several times. Some rewording and configuring could help: "The musical was a A product of the hippie counter-culture and sexual revolution of the 1960s, and several of its songs became anthems of the anti-Vietnam War peace movement", for example.
 * Fixed.
 * a group of politically active friends, long-haired "Hippies of the Age of Aquarius" rm "friends" as it interrupts the flow.
 * Fixed.
 * In fact, a full copy-edit may help greatly. I'd be willing to offer my services if the LOCE cannot help in a sufficient amount of time, but I'm seeing a lot of redundancies and grammatical weirdness.  One example of the latter: "Viet Rock was about young men being sent off to the Vietnam War and employed the same improvisational and workshop techniques later used in the development of Hair" -> "Viet Rock, a play about young men being deployed to the Vietnam War, employed the same improvisational..."
 * My plan, post PR, is to bring it to the LOCE. There are quite a few places that need it.  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  17:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the LOCE helped at Wicked. In fact, I think they might have hurt.  Between Maria and me (I was an English major at an Ivy-League school), I think we can copy edit it adequately once the Critical Reception info is added.  Maria also has a friend who helped her at the Bob Marshall article who I thought made super-duper copy editing comments.  Any chance that we could get him to take a look when we're ready?
 * You mean ? He's quite good, but very much in demand, unfortunately; he may not be available for an in depth c-e, but it's worth a try asking him.  I have a red sharpie and 1 1/2 degrees in English (and I'm a librarian! librarian card trumps everything!), though, so I'm available if you need my assistance. :) María ( habla  con migo ) 23:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, let's wait until we have the critical reception info nailed down, and then we'll both comb thru it and invite Scartol to help. I think this is a very important article because of Hair's historic importance and because there are very few articles on musicals that are really comprehensive, throroughly referenced and GA-worthy.  So this article, along with Wicked, will become models for the project.
 * Fixed.
 * Per WP:DASH, em dashes (—) should not be spaced.
 * Fixed by eliminating some dashes, and turning the rest to n-dashes, which I prefer. MOS says space ndash space is the same as emdash with no spaces, OK?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, that works just as well. Unspaced em dashes and spaced en dashes serve the same purpose. María ( habla  con migo ) 23:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hair became the first off-Broadway musical to successfully make the transition to the Broadway stage. Nothing wrong with this sentence, I'm just geeking out about it. :)
 * Hehe.... &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  17:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Er, for us old people, exactly what does "geeking out" mean? :)  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * To geek out: to react in a geeky, fanboy/girl manner with general exuberance and passion as a direct result of something that typically is equally geeky or nerdy in nature. For example, "I watched Star Wars the other day and it totally made me geek out like I was ten years old again!"
 * LOL.
 * Initially directed by Gerald Freedman, Hair premiered off-Broadway, as the inaugural performance of the under-construction Public Theater, on October 17, 1967, for a limited run of six weeks: somewhat cluttered and could be parred down. "Initially directed by Gerald Freedman, Hair premiered off-Broadway on October 17, 1967.  It was the inaugural performance of the under-construction Public Theatre and ran for a limited run of six weeks"?
 * I turned the first sentence around, since the important info is that it premiered on that date. Second of all is who directed.  Do we have to say "under-construction"?  It would be clearer if we said the the Public "was still under construction".  The first sentence of the next paragraph is confusing.  Was O'Horgan busy BECAUSE he was doing something at La Mama?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The story is that he was busy with another show he was working on - not sure what it was, if it was LaMama or another group... there's also speculation in the Horn book that Papp wanted someone more "traditional". If I can find more detail from Horn book I'll add it - Mblaxill (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, let me know, because there must be a better way to write this sentence and convey all the information it is trying to convey. If the mention of La Mama is simply to give his credentials, I don't think it's needed, because he is blue-linked.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * the LaMama mention is to flesh out his background, that he came from an experimental theater group - Mblaxill (talk) 21:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC) .. UPDATE - fixed .. O Horgan was in Europe with LaMama in the fall of '67. i changed a couple things - i think its ok now - Mblaxill (talk) 00:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, looks good now!
 * There was no nudity in these productions: which productions? The last 45 and/or the six week limited run mentioned earlier?
 * Fixed as requested.
 * The "1977 Broadway revival and 1979 film" section appears disjointed, especially since it's split into three paragraphs when the first is only one short sentence long and the last is two short sentences. If it were expanded or merely combined it would look better, but I'm not a fan of the self-referencing "Other productions are described below" ending.  Is that necessary?
 * I chose to combine the paras rather than expand .. imho there's not a whole lot more about the film and revival to mention- Mblaxill (talk) 21:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it needs to be two paragraphs, as I've now divided it. I deleted the WP:SELF reference.  Check it out.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol -- and I just broke it back into three, but I've added a bit of information on the film. &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  22:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The new info is great, but I took out the repeated definitions of Butler and O'Horgan. The reader should know pretty well who they are by that time.  I combined the last two paras, so there are two again.  Your move, Mr. Bond!
 * Lol -- moved it entirely. Moved it down with the other later productions and found one factoid from the 80s to link it to the rest of the section.  Good edits on my stuff, tho -- I was running out the door and just wanted to get everything up there.... &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  03:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ("I'm Black") - in Claude's case, "invisible": unspaced em dash needed instead of plain dash.
 * Fixed so that it doesn't have any dash. Dashes are overused on WP.  -- Ssilvers
 * The first part of the "Politics and social change" section needs further references, especially "Stage nudity was acceptable in New York at that time but was unknown elsewhere in the U.S." and the following sentences.
 * OK - the Horn book says that the nudity was the first time Bway had seen totally naked actors and actresses .. her footnote is an article by William Kloman in the NYT dated 5/12/68 titled "2001 and Hair - are they the groove of the future?" .. this article isn't on michaelbutler.com and i don't have access to Times Select so ... hand-off on THAT. In any case, I put this in and deleted the sentence about nudity being acceptable in NYC but not elsewhere, etc since these two factoids don't mesh - Mblaxill (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's the link to the abstract. Not sure what it's supposed to cite.  You're one hell of a sleuth, brotha!  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  03:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * thnx! did you read the whole article or just to 1st paragraph .. i guess someone with Times Select needs to find where the cite is. Also I'll look for the flag desecration and obsence language refs when i get a chance - Mblaxill (talk) 15:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC) UDATE - fixed (i think) - Mblaxill (talk) 16:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A connection needs to be made between the musical's raciness and its occasional bomb threats and acts of violence; something as simple as a transitional sentence ("As a result of" or something similar) would do the trick.
 * Fixed.
 * Should there be a separate section for Themes? The bit about Astrology in the "Politics" section is out of place as it has nothing to do with politics or social change.
 * I hadn't noticed that, but definitely a good point. The themes, though, seem to be intertwined with the politics and social change.  Not sure how to handle that....  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  17:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a "Theme" subsection with the astrology and song subject paragraphs ... and putting the astrology paragragh last since it has the least to do with the main hed. Otherwise i don't know where to put the astrology para (i would argue for its inclusion somewhere in the article) - Mblaxill (talk) 18:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * One of the things I would argue for is a section on the creative process in, well, creating the show. How did the individual characters get created?  How did the songs come about?  One editor has mentioned a source for "Frank Mills" -- that could be noted.  The astrology paragraph would definitely be in place, here.  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  19:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Usually, near the top of the article as part of the Background/history section, you have a discussion on how the article came to be written, the "genesis" of the article.  See Thespis (opera) for a great one.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure I follow .. what's covered in History is pretty much what we have. Rado is notoriously cryptic about all things Hair and hasn't put out that much info (esp about himself! That fact from the Horn book is the most I've ever read about him). The quote from the LA Times is probably the most you'll get - Mblaxill (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I noticed on Dagmar's site, she relates a story about her hiring -- the guy asked her what sign she was, she said "Aquarius" and he hired her.  Might help flesh out the section on astrology.  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  20:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a good article from michaelbutler.com on astrology - Astrology Today Magazine - circa 1970
 * That article has a lot of information. That can probably be a whole section.  -- MM5376
 * Maybe User:Rarmin can add something, or maybe not. We'll see.  I do commend your attention to Thespis (opera)'s "Background" and "Reception" sections though.  I think they are possibly the best ones that exists on Wikipedia for any work of musical theatre.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Made an attempt at solving the Theme problem. I changes the subhed to "Social Change" since "Politics" seemed repetitive and moved astrology down to the last para. Thoughts? - Mblaxill (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * MOS prefers U.S. and UK, not US or U.K. (crazy, but that's what MOS says!). No preference re: serial comma, but I agree that we should pick one and be consistent.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I apologize for that -- it seems that most editors around here shy away from the serial comma, but I have the tendency to use it. I like commas.  &mdash;   Music  Maker  5376  20:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC),
 * So do I, funnily enough. <3 commas. María ( habla  con migo ) 23:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * re Plot Summary .. i went in and trimmed some (very painful :). Most of what's left is (imho) important to the character and general flow of the show .. I hope it can stay in - Mblaxill (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you made very good choices on what to trim. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you enjoyed the article! User:Mblaxill needs to be given most (99.99%) of the credit, but it's definitely an achievement. There are some weak points that need to be rectified before it gets to FA (the creation of the show, what happened to the 80s?, etc....), but, once undergoing a good copyedit, I think it's probably ready for GA. All of your suggestions are excellent. As soon as I have a chance to implement them, I definitely will. Thank you so much! &mdash;  Music  Maker  5376  17:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You're very welcome. This is a great team effort and the research and hard work definitely shows.  If you were to nominate it for GAC, I think it would sail right through; FAC, however, is another story.  You know how picky those reviewers can be, yikes.  Let me know when it makes it that far.  María ( habla  con migo ) 23:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)