Wikipedia:Peer review/Hattie Jacques/archive1

Hattie Jacques
This peer review discussion has been closed. Oooh Matron! The inimitable Hattie Jacques was a much-loved figure in British comedy from her work with the Players' Theatre in 1946 through to her appearances in 14 Carry On films and many appearances with Eric Sykes on television and stage. A woman who was conscious of her weight problems, she spent much of her career typecast into roles that played on laughs at her expense, from Sophie Tuckshop in Tommy Handley's It's That Man Again, to Griselda Pugh, Tony Hancock's secretary in Hancock's Half Hour. We hope to go forward to FAC once the PR is closed. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC) and '' Cassianto Talk   22:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

 * Lead
 * "her radio appearances on three hugely popular radio series" – I'd lose the first of the two "radio"s.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "fourteen Carry On films" – in the main text you tend to use figures rather than words for numbers over ten: fee for 17 days … 16 episodes between November … a further 20 episodes etc. I prefer them as words, but consistency is wanted one way or t'other.
 * I've gone with numbers over words: although I also prefer words, numbers are preferred in the MOS, and someone will comment on it later... - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Early life: 1922–44
 * "Jacques commenced her schooling" – I offer you this quotation from Noël Coward: "I just can't abide the word 'testicles'. It's smug and refined like 'commence' and 'serviette' and 'haemorrhoids'. When in doubt turn to the good old honest Anglo-Saxon words. If you have piles, say so!"
 * "Jacques commenced her piles" it is - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "the Dean Sisters Academy" – no possessive apostrophe?
 * Somewhat surprisingly, not according to the source. - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Early post-war work: 1944–50
 * "the play received favourable reviews with the Gloucestershire Echo describing the production as "a noble play", and thought that Jacques was "very solidly in step"" – the syntax has gone off the rails here, and there is some confusion between the work and its production. I suggest: "the play received favourable reviews; the Gloucestershire Echo described the piece as "a noble play", and thought that Jacques was "very solidly in step""
 * Done as suggested
 * "the Alberto Cavalcanti-directed film" – "Alberto Cavalcanti's film"?
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "despite Le Mesurier being married, albeit estranged from his wife" – you need a gerund here – "despite Le Mesurier's being married" – and this is your second "albeit" in one paragraph, which is at least one too many. I'd lose the first (in "albeit briefly and uncredited") completely, and turn the second into "though"
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "the "Three Cripples" tavern" – quotes really needed here?
 * Not really: now removed - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "the David Lean-directed film" – as above, suggest "David Lean's film"
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Increasing fame: 1950–58
 * "copied it out long-hand from the British Museum" – at the BM. Not a prayer of getting anything from it. Or is this "from so-and-so's original at the BM"?
 * "at" - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Starting on the Carry On series: 1958–63
 * "fourteen films over a sixteen year period" – again (see comment above about the lead) be consistent with figures-v-words
 * Done in line with the above - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Wilfrid Hyde-White's bottom which was put there" – to avoid ambiguity I'd lose "which was" and replace it with a comma.
 * Quite right: done. - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "no-nonsense Maths mistress" – two points here. It's the second "no-nonsense" in successive paragraphs (perhaps replace the first with "formidable"?) and I don't think Maths needs a capital letter
 * tweaked them both - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Private turmoil; new acting ventures: 1963–67
 * "as well as recording four episodes of Housewife's Choice, Jacques starred in her own series, Miss Adventure" – as the former was a radio series perhaps clarify whether the latter was also radio or was on TV.
 * Clarified that it was a television series - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "wasn't overshadowed by Margaret Rutherford, who had played the role in the 1945 film version" – Rutherford not only played the role in the film but created it on the stage and played it for ages. [Obiter dicta: I saw the ITV production at the time, and Jacques absolutely ran away with it. Superb!]
 * Tweaked Rutherford (so to speak) [and lucky you!] - SchroCat (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Return to Carry On: 1967–74
 * "Having received this rejection" – I'd be inclined to lose these four words.
 * Consider them lost - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "aside from an episode of Catweazle" – aside from? A bit transatlantic, surely? What about "apart from"?
 * "Apart from" it is - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "a six-episode series of Charley's Grants" – itals for the title?
 * Oops - mea culpa - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "where she played Sophie Bliss" – in which she played Sophie Bliss
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Although Loving was one of the cheapest Carry On films …" – not sure that this is all that relevant to the Hattie biography
 * Removed - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "house-bound wife" – the OED has "housebound" as a single unhyphenated word.
 * And the OED wins - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Life after Carry On: 1974–80
 * "In May 1980" – two points here. I think you might be better to end the sentence where the semicolon now is and make the rest a new sentence. Secondly, who is Bruce Copp? He appears unexpectedly here with no clear context.
 * Done on both points - referring to Copp as "friend" - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "her former residence" – "house", perhaps? (see "testicles")
 * "her former testicles" didn't read well, so I've gone with house... - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Reputation
 * "Alan Simpson, the writer of Hancock" – heresy! Co-writer, I beg you.
 * Oops! Now altered. - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Notes
 * Note l: I watched Titipu at the time and memory tells me that the title was not hyphenated. Memory, for once, is quite right: I've checked the Times and Guardian archives for Dec 1967, and it is Titipu rather than Titi-Pu. (It was, by the way, rather an insipid rehash of the original, but Hattie was excellent in the Katisha role ("Katie Shaw"). I remember her extracting Ko-Ko from prison by matter-of-factly dragging the window bars apart with her bare hands.)
 * Done! - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Bibliography
 * Two points. First, the MoS is wary of the term "bibliography", because to some people it means books written by the subject of the article and to others it means books about him/her. If all the books at present are cited in the text, then "Sources" seems to be the preferred header. Secondly, if there are any books listed that aren't cited in the text (and I admit I have been too lazy to check), then they would be better listed separately as "Further reading".
 * I've gone with Sources: they are all included in the text (I have a script with flashes up any unused ones). - SchroCat (talk) 14:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's my lot. I was rather shocked to read that by the time Hattie was my age she'd been dead for three years, but, for all that, hers is on the whole a happier biography than some of your tragic previous subjects. This article is well up to standard in all regards and I look forward to rereading when FAC comes along. – Tim riley (talk) 13:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Tim, I have arrived a bit late for this and it looks as though my colleague has beaten me to it. Many thanks for your helpful comments.   Cassianto Talk   15:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * On the contrary! SchroCat appears to be working backwards, and the first half of my suggestions are still virgin territory, at date of going to press. Do wander in, if you are so inclined. Tim riley (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry - I switched ends at half-time and started working downwards! Many, many thanks Tim: all hugely constructive and helpful and I hope I've done justice to them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton
Here are some comments on the first few sections. I have also been doing some copyedits as I've read through, so check the edit history.
 * I notice she was "on ITMA"; "on Educating Archie"; "on Hancock's Half Hour". I'm not sure; I know programmes are on the radio, as indeed they are on TV. But surely, people are in the programmes, rather than on them?
 * Swapped for "in".  Cassianto Talk   07:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the snippets from Francis Gray, at the end of the lead, can be reorganised to avoid slight repetitions, e.g. "talent", "comic-comedy-comic"?
 * Now done: there's only a comedy-comic overlap, but I think there sufficiently different (and space out) that the result doesn't jar. Let me know if you think it needs further work and I'll see what else I can do. - SchroCat (talk) 11:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know at what point Hattie adopted the "C" into her surname, but I found the lack of knowledge niggled as I read the article. This should be noted as early as possible, I believe.
 * Yes: now located and inserted. - SchroCat (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Upon his death, Mary, Jacques and her elder brother Robin moved from Newton in Lincolnshire to London,[8] and Jacques started her schooling at the Godolphin and Latymer School in Hammersmith." This sentence suggests some immediate continuity of events. Yet Jacques was 18 months old when her father dies, and Godolphin and Latimer (which should be linked) is a secondary school. So something like 10 years separate the first  and second parts of the sentence. I think we need to acknowledge this somehow; e.g. can we at least give the year in which Jacques started at the school?
 * Now added and re-worked, with mention of the primary school too. - SchroCat (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we know how old she was when she attended the dance academy?
 * Sadly not: the sources are rather vague on the point. - SchroCat (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "On her return to the Players' in June 1947, the actor John Le Mesurier went with fellow thespian Geoffrey Hibbert to see a Late Joys revue..." I can't help thinking that mentioning Hibbert is unnecessary. Also I'm uncomfortable with "on her return"; I assume it was some time after her return.
 * Cut down to this.  Cassianto Talk   07:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "...the two began to see each other regularly despite Le Mesurier's being married, although estranged from his wife." The situation does not warrant a "despite", if Le M was separated. Suggest reword.
 * reworded.  Cassianto Talk   07:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "she also found time during the spring to record No, No, Nanette" – what, the whole show? Can you identify the role she recorded?
 * a little digging, but yes, Asa Briggs shows her as Flora. - SchroCat (talk) 10:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Tenses proplem: Chance of a Lifetime is a social and industrial relations drama..." – but naming the long-dead Basil Radford in the "is" sentence creates a problem. Unless the play is in the current repertory (which I doubt), I'd say it was a social and industrial drama. And maybe consider whether you need to mention Radford.
 * I've removed the wording "Dickinson (Basil Radford),", which I think was the gist of your second part - it still reads well enough. I thought we put films etc as "is", as copies of them exist, and therefore they still "are"? Happy to tweak as you see fit now that the extra wrinkle of Radford has been removed. - SchroCat (talk) 07:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Jacques was broadcast..." – are people "broadcast"? I'd say she was "cast".
 * Changed.  Cassianto Talk   07:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "As well as recording in series five of Educating Archie between February and April 1955—where she was cast as Mrs Leathers for 18 episodes of Mrs Dale's Diary..." Sorry? This does not make sense. I think you mean she was performing in the two shows concurrently.
 * Sorry for the utter gibberish, mea culpa. I've reworked the last few lines accordingly. - SchroCat (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "She finished the year with seven episodes of The Granville Melodramas on ITV between October and December." Can you explicate "with"? Was she apppearing, writing, directing?
 * Tweaked to show appearing. - SchroCat (talk) 10:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll be back as soon as I can. Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

A bit more...


 * I don't like the first "on" in the section title: "Starting on the Carry On series: 1958–63
 * Me neither. Now says  "The Carry On series: 1958–63"   Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "From 1958 to 1974 Jacques was part of the original Carry On team". I think in this prose format the "original" is unnecessary—she was part of the original cast in 1958, and part of the cast from 1958 to 1974.
 * Tweaked.  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "a warm, kind-hearted and endearing lady" – such tributes require specific attribution.
 * I'm not seeing enough supporting evidence from the source either, so I've removed the wording. - SchroCat (talk) 09:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Other formidable characterisations followed, including the formidable maths mistress" – repetition.
 * Deleted. Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Two successive sentences beginning "Later that year..."
 * Sorted.  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ""it would be very lonely and far too quiet on the island for someone of her extrovert nature." This is presented in quotes as something that Jacques said – but she can't have said "her".
 * re-worked the sentence. - SchroCat (talk) 09:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "She appeared in her sixth Carry On, Carry On Cabby in 1963, in which she appeared... – repetition
 * Done.  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Jacques continued with her charitable works" – this is the first mention of them in the article. Also, I am not convinced that this short end-of-section paragraph is the best way of introducing Schofield into the story. It should, I think, be appropriately revised and reposition at the opening of the next section.
 * I've had a stab at this. I think it reads OK, but let me know if you think it needs a further tweak. - SchroCat (talk) 10:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "and tried to repair the marriage". These words are covered by the next sentence and are unnecessary.
 * Deleted.  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Although Le Mesurier did not mention the marital situation..." – clarify whether this refers to Le M's appearance on This Is Your Life
 * Blast, I can't remember and I only watched Hattie two weeks ago! SchroCat, any ideas?  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was on TiYL (some good clips on YouTube show Le Mez trying to phrase things appropriately, but stuggling a little to get the words right). I've tweaked to show it is in response to Sheamus Android's questioning. - SchroCat (talk) 08:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "the 1963 Tony Hancock vehicle" – specify "film"
 * Specified.  Cassianto Talk   01:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "five stone": needs a metric equivalent. Do we know what her weight was, after the dieting? That would help us to understand how much she put on when her weight ballooned up to 20 stone.
 * Sadly not: Lewis (the cited source) refers to it and Merriman also has it as part of a large quote from Jacques, but she fails to give a starting point. - SchroCat (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

One more should do it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it'll be more than one. Here is a bit more:


 * Was "Howerd's Hour" a radio or TV show?
 * Tweaked to show ITV. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Additionally she also..." I have corrrected this (deleting the "additionally") but there may be other occurrences - check it out
 * Oops, thanks! Checked the rest and no other "Additionally"s are there. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "at the film's half-finished hotel." A weird way of putting it – I'd just say "at a half-finished hotel."
 * Done.  Cassianto Talk   02:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the information "Jacques also felt the strain of performing for the Carry On series." can be implied from the preceding text. It looks odd, added as an afterthought.
 * Deleted.  Cassianto Talk   02:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "During the course of 1972 Jacques co-starred in the first series of Sykes, in which she played Hattie Sykes in 16 episodes between September and December;[d] the series was an extension to Sykes and a and she again played Hattie Sykes, "the wide-eyed, less-knowing but remarkably patient sister-cum-mother-figure". This is awfully repetitive, and needs quite a bit of sorting out.
 * I've done some heavy cutting and moved some to the note. I think what's left in the main text is much clearer now. - SchroCat (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "At its height..." when was this?
 * Not clarified in the source, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you be a bit more precise than "During the year...", in relation to the date of Le Mesurier's award?
 * February now added. - SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The quote includes: "she lost John or there was now no-one with whom to spend her life". Does it really say "or", when "and" would make much more sense.
 * Checked again, and it's "or", oddly. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry it's just a snippet, but I used a few spare minutes. Brianboulton (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

This is the final tranche:
 * "she received a letter offering her an OBE": this is too casual, and gives the wrong impression of how the honours system works. I recommend you change to something like: "she received official notification of the intention to appoint her as an OBE". Also I'd place a full stop after "OBE" otherwise the sentence is too long.
 * Both suggestions adopted. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "During the course of the different tours Sykes altered the act several times to ensure he received more acclaim than Jacques." It's odd to find this sentence before any indication is given of strained relations between the two. I would insert something along the lines: "During the course of the different tours relations between the two stars became increasingly strained; Sykes altered the act several times to ensure he received more acclaim than Jacques."
 * Yep: your version much better. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "she looked "a little unsteady on her feet". – I would attribute this.
 * Now added. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I am assuming that she died at home, so I would alter the account to read: "She took a weekend break from hospital and returned home, where on 6 October  she died from a heart attack and kidney failure, at the age of 58."
 * Yes, now tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a bit odd to find, in a section headed "Life after Carry On", that the subject dies halfway through the section. I suggest you amend the title to "After Carry On: 1974–80" and then subdivide between "Final appearances" and "Death and tributes", the latter beginning at the paragraph "In May 1980..."
 * Now structured as suggested. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "in her series of early Dickens adaptations (Nicholas Nickleby, Oliver Twist, Scrooge and Pickwick)...":  this wording gives the wrong impression – "her series of early Dickens adaptations"? I assume you are referring to her roles in these Dickens-based films, and you should reword accordingly.
 * Now re-worked. - SchroCat (talk) 22:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ""could make an innocous old Victorian or Edwardian ballad and with just a few intonations and expressions give it another meaning entirely".[9] This is a quote, but it doesn't quite make sense. Are you sure the second word isn't "take", rather than "make"? That would make sense.
 * "Take" it is. - SchroCat (talk) 22:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * repetition of "complained" in the final sentence.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Filmography and performances": I don't like seeing a whole section with only a link as its content. In similar circumstances I usually construct a brief summary paragraph below the link, and I recommend you do this.
 * Funnily enough Cass and I were discussing this very point a day or so ago, but without conclusion. A brief para now in place on this. - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

General comment: A lovely subject, told with plenty of revealing detail – I had no idea her career was so varied. I am sure the article will be very popular among readers. I have made quite a few prose edits/corrections in addition to the points raised here, and I recommend that you go through the entire article with some care, before taking it to FAC, as I can't be certain that I've picked everything up. Brianboulton (talk) 21:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * As always Brian, a huge thank you for all the time and effort you have spent improving this. I think we've done justice to all your points, but we'll take a couple of days to go over the whole thing again closely to try and iron out any other wrinkles. Thanks again. - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

All closed: thanks very much for all those who took part. - SchroCat (talk) 09:06, 16 December 2013 (UTC) &  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:53, 16 December 2013 (UTC)