Wikipedia:Peer review/Igor Stravinsky/archive1

Igor Stravinsky


I've recently improved this article to GA and hope to get it to FA. It was suggested that I open it for review before I nominate it. Thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 20:10, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Nice article! Well written. The citations look meticulous (although this is an area I don't know much about; I cant really judge the quality of the sources). I think the division between Biography, Personal life, and music is well done.
 * I think the organization of the Legacy section could use some work. The division between Influence and Reception is a bit confusing. The second paragraph under Influence seems like it's more about music that influenced Stravinsky, rather than the influence Stravinsky had on music. The Philip Glass quote would be better to open the Influence section than the Life magazine quote, or the chopped up Satie quote.
 * Make the influence section laser-focused on influence that he had on music. The reception section could be a bit tighter, too. Maybe open with the Rite of Spring reception (like it is now, since that's an event people want to know about first), and then go into chronological order. 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 22:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 00:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley
After a first read-through checking on typos etc, I see that although the article is mostly written in BrE (baptised, favour, finalised, honour, hospitalised, metre, rumoured, theorised, travelled), a few AmE spellings have crept in (clarinetist, fulfill, traveled, unfavorable). Better to stick to one or the other. One might possibly argue that AmE could be appropriate, given that Stravinsky was an American citizen for part of his life, but I don't suppose anyone will object to either BrE or AmE, as long as you are consistent. Back later once I have read the article through again. –  Tim riley  talk   16:55, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments thus far! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 00:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

My comments are mainly on the prose. The content looks admirable. More comments to follow.  Tim riley  talk   08:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Comments down to the end of the Biography section
 * "Diaghilev agreed for the Ballets Russes to stage it" – "agreed for" looks odd; "agreed that the Ballets Russes would..." might flow more naturally.
 * Used agree that and fixed up the sentence appropriately
 * "alleging to detect the influence of Arnold Schoenberg." – I don't think you can allege to. "claiming to" might be better.
 * Used claiming
 * "Stravinsky was ineligible for military service in the World War due to health reasons." – this is a bit vague. If this is a hangover from an earlier illness you might say so, and if something else you could tell us what it was.
 * Changed to "due to his history of typhoid" and added citation
 * "thus creating problems for Stravinsky to collect royalties" – "problems to collect" reads strangely; perhaps "problems in collecting"? Either way the question arises did he collect any? If so, fine; if not you can say so in plain words that he could not collect them.</
 * Rewrote the sentence to include the previous sentence: Stravinsky began to struggle financially in the late 1910s. When Russia (and its successor, the USSR) did not adhere to the Berne Convention and the aftermath of World War I left countries in ruin, royalties for performances of Stravinsky's pieces stopped coming.
 * "Stravinsky approached Swiss philanthropist Werner Reinhart for financial assistance, who agreed to sponsor him" – two things here: first the clunky false title, and secondly the "who" is a bit remote from the man's name. It might flow better on the lines of "Stravinsky, seeking financial assistance, approached the Swiss philanthropist Werner Reinhart, who agreed to sponsor him."
 * I essentially copied what you suggested and rewrote the statement: Stravinsky, seeking financial assistance, approached the Swiss philanthropist Werner Reinhart, who agreed to sponsor him and largely underwrite the first performance of L'Histoire du soldat in September 1918.
 * "In gratitude ... In gratitude" – Starting two consecutive sentences with the same phrase is a little inelegant.
 * Fixed as part of the aforementioned rewrite
 * "returning to Switzerland afterward" – "afterwards" is much more usual than "afterward", which has a quaint, old-fashioned ring.
 * Added s
 * "heard from couturière Coco Chanel" – another false title.
 * Fixed
 * "who insisted to remain anonymous and" – in normal English this would be "who insisted on remaining..."
 * Implemented
 * "was famed conductor Leopold Stokowski" – false title.
 * Fixed
 * "Koussevitzky asked for Stravinsky to compose" – the "for" is superfluous here.
 * Removed
 * "the rights to exclusively perform the work" – a bit awkward: perhaps "the exclusive rights to perform the work"?
 * Used what you suggested
 * "an all-Stravinsky program at" – if in BrE this should be "programme" ("program" is reserved for computers)
 * Fixed
 * "the public's fixation towards his early ballet" – does one have a fixation towards something? The prepositions that come to mind are "on" or "with"
 * Replaced towards with on
 * "and underwent a US tour with Samuel Dushkin" – "underwent" implies an ordeal. Perhaps "undertook" here?
 * Used undertook
 * "Jeu de cartes, being a commission for Lincoln Kirstein's ballet company" – you could omit the "being"
 * Removed being
 * "Stravinsky himself spent five months in hospital at Sancellemoz" – again, the question why comes to mind.
 * I'm actually not sure; in the source, Stravinsky just says that he spent time there, and White 1979 says the same (I assume White pulled from the same source). My guess is it was a second bout of typhoid considering his history with it, but I can't seem to find a source for it.
 * "Music critic Bernard Holland claimed Stravinsky was especially fond of British writers," – false title
 * Fixed
 * "like W. H. Auden, Christopher Isherwood, Dylan Thomas" – I know this is in a quote, but as we've only got to 1940 it seems odd to see Thomas mentioned here, as he did not visit the US until 1950. There is no need for direct speech throughout, and you could recast on the lines of in Beverly Hills, like W. H. Auden, Christopher Isherwood and later Dylan Thomas: "They shared the composer's taste for hard spirits – especially Aldous Huxley, with whom Stravinsky spoke in French."
 * I used exactly what you wrote (though I did add an oxford comma), the incorporation of Thomas's name was cleaner
 * "It was at this time when Stravinsky began to associate himself with film music" – Could do with trimming: "It was at this time when" could advantageously be trimmed to "At this time"
 * Put At this time, Stravinsky began to associate himself with film music
 * "Stravinsky deemed the terms fell into the producer's favour" – strange phrasing: perhaps something like "Stravinsky considered the terms were too much in the producer's favour"
 * Used what you suggested
 * "was actor Edward G. Robinson" – false title
 * Fixed
 * "W.H. Auden" – you need to decide whether Auden does or doesn't have a space between his initials. At present we have W.H. Auden and W. H. Auden. I believe the Manual of Style recommends the latter form, but you might want to check.
 * Used W. H.
 * "As per his wishes – prefer good English to bad Latin: something like "in accordance with his wishes" would be considerably more elegant.
 * Used your suggestions
 * Thank you for the help so far! I'd never heard of a false title before, so this is a good English lesson too! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

My comments on the music are somewhat tentative as you plainly know much more about the mechanics than I do (I wouldn't recognise a ♭ dominant 7 superimposed on an F♭ major triad if it came up and bit me in the leg) but with that caveat, I hope these points are of use:
 * Music
 * Student works (1898–1907)
 * "Music historian Eric Walter White" – another false title
 * Fixed
 * "the former two being works for piano and the latter for voice and piano" – I'm sorry to be utterly pedantic but however you word the first bit you can't have the latter of three: what you want here is "the first two ... the last"
 * Fixed to ...the first two being works for piano and the last for voice...
 * ["Stravinsky's musical career as "aesthetically cramped" due to the "dry, cynical conservatism" of Rimsky-Korsakov and his music" – it's a quote and I'm not suggesting any change, but between ourselves who could conceivably imagine Scheherazade to be dry? And have you heard Rimsky's Quintet for flute, clarinet, horn, bassoon, and piano? Dry? But I digress.]
 * I see your point, and thinking about it, that could maybe be a neutrality issue... nonetheless, I cut "dry" so it now just says "cynical conservativism".


 * First three ballets (1910–1913)
 * "Diaghilev convinced Stravinsky to compose it as a ballet" – if, as seems, we're in BrE we don’t "convince to" we convince that or persuade to. (I think the AmE usage is better, but I merely record the customary English usage.)
 * Changed to Diaghilev convinced Stravinsky that he should instead compose it as...
 * "by Viennese composer Joseph Lanner" – false title
 * Fixed
 * "Both polytonality and unusual rhythms can be seen in the chords that open the second episode" – they can no doubt be seen by those who can read an orchestral score better than I can, but even so might "can be heard" be more the mark?
 * Heard makes more sense; fixed


 * Russian period (1913–1920)
 * "Jeremy Noble writes ... Contrarily, composer Bela Bartok" – If Bartók needs an explanation about who he was (and certainly needs an acute accent, here and later) I think a critic of middling importance like Noble (described by Raymond Leppard to a friend of mine as "a tight-arsed academic queen", though that's not to the present point) similarly needs an explanation. There is an article on JN, and a blue link is wanted. And I'm a bit unsure about "contrarily", which usually means not "on the contrary, but "capriciously". You don't need an adverb here at all, I think.
 * This made me laugh; Put "the musicologist" before Jeremy Noble, added wikilink, and cut "Contrarily"
 * "the libretto for Les noces" – might possibly benefit from a segue such as "His next opera..."?
 * Added "his next opera"
 * "In Naples, Italy" – as opposed to the Naples in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or the one in Outer Mongolia?
 * The distinction here is between Naples, Florida, U.S., and the Italian city, considering that we mentioned his life in the US before this; though, considering we mention an Italian for of theatre in the same sentence, I do see why including "Italy" is silly. Cut.
 * "a ballet based on music by Giovanni Battista Pergolesi – sticking my head out and being perfectly prepared to be told I'm wrong, I seem to recall reading that Stravinsky used someone else's music rather than Pergolesi's.
 * Huh, that's fascinating, the source mentioned nothing of this so I'm surprised. I've added a citation and revised the sentence: based on music by Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, Domenico Gallo, and others whose music was published under Pergolesi's name.
 * I've been doing a bit of digging, and I think your new wording is spot-on.  Tim riley  talk   09:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Neoclassical period (1920–1951)
 * "an idea he'd had for some time" – MOS:N'T: avoid "he'd" etc in text, unless in a quotation.
 * Cut
 * "Stravinsky was inspired by the operas of W.A. Mozart" – if smaller fry like Gluck, Weber, Donizetti et al can be simply surnamed (rightly in my view), why would the greatest of all composers need to have his initials mentioned?
 * Cut W.A.
 * "The Rake's Progress has become an important work in opera repertoire, being "[more performed] than any other opera written after the death of Puccini." – More than Peter Grimes? Just asking.
 * That's a good point, and I'm not sure. Quick Google searches don't yield many helpful results, considering the most performed operas were composed before or during Puccini., do you think this needs to be cut?
 * As it's in a quotation I think it's safe to leave it in.  Tim riley  talk   09:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Serial period (1954–1968)
 * " while it's texts still use" – no apostrophe in "its", please, when used as a pronoun, as here, rather than as a contraction of "it is"
 * Fixed
 * "Noble wrote that the Requiem Canticles is "a distillation ..." – two things here: first, elsewhere you use the normal convention "So-and-so writes..." rather than wrote, and secondly to me the plural Requiem Canticles cry out for a plural verb.
 * Changed to: Noble describes the Requiem Canticles as "a distillation both of the liturgical text and of his own musical means of setting it, evolved and refined through a career of more than 60 years."
 * "Influence from other composers of the time" – Britten, I grant you, but as Schoenberg was dead by 1954 and Webern was deader still are they composers of the time?
 * Removed "of this time"

More anon. –  Tim riley  talk   15:10, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

That's all from me. Please let me know when you take the article to FAC. –  Tim riley  talk   09:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Final batch
 * Personality section: no comments – all seems fine to me.
 * Reception section: we have little or nothing about how Stravinsky's music is seen in the 21st century. Before going to FA it would be good to add some up-to-date assessments.
 * I've added a paragraph regarding his reception today, most notably at the 100th anniversary of The Rite's premiere.
 * The Musical Times in 1923 did not refer to "the program of the Stravinsky concert which created such a stir a few years ago"; in English the word is "programme", which is what The Musical Times printed.
 * Fixed
 * Contrary to a common misconception – is there a source for calling it a common misconception?
 * Cut with the below pruning
 * The Adorno paragraph goes on a bit – 200 words, many of them impenetrable. The pruning knife is wanted, I think.
 * Did some trimming, it's now at a more reasonable 88 words and one of the quotes was partly paraphrased
 * Adorno didn't believe – WP:N'T.
 * Cut with above pruning
 * Stravinsky's reputation in Russia and the USSR rose and fell – and rose again according to the text here.
 * Changed to "varied" instead of rose and fell
 * Khrushchev invited him to the USSR for an official state visit – do composers make state visits? I thought that was reserved for heads of state.
 * The source (Karlinsky 1985) says: "Stravinskii's state visit to his native country on Nikita Khrushchev's invitation..." So I think "state visit" was pulled from that. Nonetheless, I cut it to just say "official visit"
 * Grammy Awards received by Stravinsky: to my mind this ranks as trivia in a serious article about a serious composer, and at the very least you should get rid of the mentions of his failed nominations. Better to reduce the table to a single sentence listing his four wins, if we must mention these tinpot awards at all. To focus on these awards at the expense of genuinely prestigious awards such as the Grand Prix du Disque and the Gramophone awards seems to me WP:UNDUE. I certainly couldn't support promotion to Featured Article with this table in. This of course is just my own view: it might be a good idea to ask the other peer reviewers for their thoughts on this point.
 * Removed table and kept the summarizing sentence
 * Selected writings – "selected" is a dangerous word: the reader is entitled to ask "Selected by whom and on what criteria"?
 * I've clarified the section by adding a statement to the top. The sources are sections in Walsh's and White's books.
 * Thank you for your review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Much relieved at your decision about the table! I look forward to the FAC. Meanwhile, if you fancy getting your own back for all my carping, I too have a peer review on the go, where your comments would be gladly received if you were minded to look in.  Tim riley  talk   14:53, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda
As it happens, I wrote comments during a flight, and now that I arrived find the article on the Main page! I'm too tired to check if things have changed in the meantime, - please just ignore then.


 * To future editors viewing this: If a comment is crossed out without explanation, assume I implemented it without question; otherwise, refer to the comment below the suggestion. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * While I understand the system, you may consider to instead say: all items to which I didn't respond above, I tried to implement without question - without crossing. - I'll look at fixes and responses, but it may take some time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead
 * "later of French (from 1934) and American (from 1945) citizenship" - citizenship comes too late for my taste, and I don't need "later" when a precise year is given
 * I'm not sure that "modernist music" is well-defined
 * "At the premiere of his Scherzo fantastique and Feu d'artifice in February 1909 was Russian impresario Sergei Diaghilev, " - it's unclear if "his" refers to RK or S, and "to be at a premiere" is rather weak - "attended"?
 * "Ballets Russes ballet company" - no reason to have "ballet" twice
 * "throughout the 1910s" - not needed as the precise dates follow
 * Stravinsky's compositions were diverse." - How about introducing the periods instead?
 * "His works from the Russian period" seems to mean the neoclassical period, and could be connected more elegantly.
 * The lead should have at least one work of the serial period.
 * The lead should say something about reception and recognition, and personal life.

Early life
 * why the Ustilug house so early when connected to his father-in-law?
 * no capital "The" - outside the link or in it
 * is there a Russian article about his Gymnasium to which we could connect by interlanguage link? this is a general question for terms that have no article in English.
 * No other article as far as I can find. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * chronology would have the ballet visits at age 8 before the piano lessons at age 9
 * it's common practise to link things in the lead and the first occurrence in the body, such as the theatre
 * what does "himself" add to "the composer"?
 * "had mastered" - "mastered"?
 * do we know which string quartet?
 * Not that I can find. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Education
 * "he at first took to the subject" - seems redundant to what follows
 * "Stravinsky wished to meet Vladimir's father" - when we read this, the father was established, while Vladimir may have been forgotten, - better just "meet him"
 * link to the consertoire even if he didn't go
 * Not linking because it's linked earlier in that paragraph. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 16:08, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "In 1905, he began" - he "had begun" because we were already in 1906
 * wl opus number
 * "Stravinsky and Nosenko's first two children" - was her name still Nosenko after they married? - how about "The couple had two children ..."?

Ballets
 * 1910 twice in one sentence
 * "As his wife was expecting their third child" - sounds as if he wasn't expecting, - how about "was egnant"?
 * " their second son, Sviatoslav (Soulima), was born" - why not just the name?
 * "based" - no, "based on"
 * "after which a young girl is chosen" - isn't that one of the rituals?
 * image of dancers: rather unspecific, Pina Bausch's is more radical ;)
 * I'm unsure what you mean, is there a specific image you're referring to? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "on the same-titled story" - I'd just link "the story" because that has neither an English nor a French but a Danish title
 * better say "Anderson's story", as otherwise Anderson could have started in 1908. - No link to Anderson as the story has an article
 * "Following the outbreak of World War I later that year, he was ineligible for military service due to health reasons." - his health didn't change "following", no? Also: at the time it was the only world war, - not sure that "WWI" is a good idea
 * image of supporters: caption is too long, consider last names only, and no nèe.
 * "before national borders were closed" - do we need "national"?
 * "who was also an amateur clarinetist" - why "also" (the second "also" in the sentence)?
 * Pulcinella in Paris comes suddenly, and "returned to Switzerland" seems strange after he had been there throughout the previous para

France
 * "Tchaikovsky's ballet The Sleeping Beauty" - drop "ballet" - we had it before
 * no link to "infidelity", perhaps say "situation"?
 * I'm not happy with "Katherina" (who was Nosenko until then) and "Vera" - first names for grown-up women, but I have no good alternative
 * I went ahead and used their maiden names to clarify any confusion. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Despite some payments not being send" - sorry, don't understand
 * Cut it since it doesn't seem to contribute to the sentence. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Stravinsky agreed to a piano concerto, to which Koussevitzky convinced him that he be the soloist at its premiere." - unclear who was the soloist
 * US 1925 - Catalunya 1924 - why not in chronology?
 * "A wealthy patroness of music"- patron is fine, she was already introduced as Elizabeth

US
 * "By early 1964" - why not simple past tense, but "had" three times?
 * "It was his final performance as conductor in his lifetime" - what does "in his lifetime" add?
 * "by Austrian composer Hugo Wolf for a small orchestra" - I don't need "Austrian composer" - he seems well-known enough
 * "In October 1969, after close to three decades in California and being denied to travel overseas by his doctors due to ill health, Stravinsky and Vera" - doesn't this say that both people were denied?

Personal life
 * not sure this is the best header

Character
 * same: what follows is literary and art inspiration and collaboration, politics, and an alleged affair which receives a lot of detail - how is any of that Character?
 * For the above two, I cut a good bit of the stuff about the affair and moved the paragraph to 'Reception'. Additionally, I added new headers for the different topics. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "After befriending a Russian Orthodox priest, Father Nicholas, after his move to Nice in 1924, he reconnected with his faith."  - "after twice?

Legacy
 * with a link to Motivic development, why explain also?

I wonder about the distinction of Reception and Legacy. - For me, reception is how he was seen at his time, and legacy rather his impact in the future. If so, I'd have reception first.
 * I made 'Reception' a big header above 'Legacy' and left the rest under that. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Honours
 * Aren't the Grammies also distinctions?

As dedicatee
 * Not the greatest header
 * Why sort by alpha of title? ... instead of have works by a composer together?
 * Why list any works by composers without article?
 * Rearranged this section, removed article-less works, removed some headers. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Recordings
 * I'd make "Publications" a subheader

References
 * There are harv-errors
 * I'd make references 3 columns, and Sources 2 columns
 * I'd have first the sources with an author, and then the "Anon"
 * How do you think I should format this? Should the Anons be under a different subheader? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 12:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * What I normally do is first list refs with author, then the others but without "anon". Just asking. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

General
 * When a person was introduced with full name and link, simply last name suffices for later mentioning, such as Craft.
 * I removed as many as I could find, but there may be some still; I'll leave it unstruck for now. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:14, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Too many sentences - for my taste - begin with a clause.
 * We should adhere to WP style, such as "C. P. E.".
 * C. P. E. has been fixed. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 22:14, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Good luck! - On Bach's birthday, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 01:09, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments, I really appreciate all your help through this process! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 00:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll give it another read, assuming that it changed since my last visit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead Ballet Image Sacre: File:CPinaBausch MAE 339978-9.tif
 * "a pivotal figure in modernist music for his approach to asymmetrical rhythm" - that reads as if only for "asymmetrical rhythm", also: am I the only person not knowing what that is?
 * Cut asymmetrical in the lead
 * "Stravinsky explored many kinds of art and collaborated with many different artists" - many ... many
 * Changed second many to numerous
 * The two instances of criticism by colleagues seem rather week to me, and the list of awards too long for a summary, missing Grammies.
 * I'm finding it difficult to summarize these sections because almost every paragraph under "Reception" are divided by critic. Added Grammies. I'd appreciate any further help with this, leads are not something I'm rather adept at.
 * no personal life?
 * I tried adding some about his personal life in paragraph 4 of the lead.
 * Added

general You should not expect readers to read it all sequentially, instead every header is an invitation to jump there. This means that sentences should not depend on what was mentioned before, example 1 "had compesed two more pieces" - more than what, example 2 "On the same day" - which day?

Works dedicated
 * perhaps a few notes about scoring and duration, to give an idea what kind of music to expect behind a title. You don't really need to link the composers.
 * Added

Selected writings
 * better just "Writings" - or the question of selection criteria may come up
 * Changed, and clarified the header paragraph

That's all for now, - I'll check again in the FAC. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the changes, and I'll watch. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2023 (UTC)