Wikipedia:Peer review/Igor Stravinsky/archive2

Igor Stravinsky


After promotion to GA last year, followed by a PR to prep for FAC, followed by a failed FAC, followed by a whole bunch of sitting around... we're finally back! The article has been completely rewritten, with many new sources and many old sources gone. Off to FAC we go next- thanks to all for your comments! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 20:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Ligaturama comments
Well done for all your work on this! It's looking good. I've corrected a few uncontroversial copyediting things so as not to clutter up this page; below I have some minor rewording suggestions and some areas that could be expanded more.

Rewording/clarification suggestions

 * Can link to The Second Saint Petersburg Gymnasium
 * "Soon after finishing the sonata, the student began his large-scale Symphony in E-flat,[c] the first draft of which he finished in 1905.[22] The student's first public premiere came in 1905..." - overuse of "the student", can replace both with "Stavinsky" and "his".
 * "massive instrumentation" sounds a bit weird, how about "extensive instrumentation" (or "forces")?
 * "after the Moscow Free Theatre collapsed" - the building or the company? Not particularly significant, but the first thing it brought to my mind was a building falling down, which is probably wrong.
 * "the composer met the artist Pablo Picasso, with whom Stravinsky adventured around Italy" - quite confusing to name Stravinsky the second time but not the first. Perhaps "Stravinsky met Pablo Picasso, and the two adventured around Italy".
 * "His involvement with player pianos ended in 1930" - but it says above he was with Rochechouart until 1933?
 * He stopped working with the devices in 1930, but funny enough just stayed at the factory until 1933. Clarified a little bit in the prose. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:50, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "the Piano Concerto of 1924 was premiered with himself as soloist, soon after taking the work on tour and performing it in over 40 concerts." - I'd replace "soon after taking the work on tour and performing" with "and he subsequently took the work on tour and performed". I read the "soon after" as describing something that happened previously rather than the intended meaning.
 * "making him ... compose various commercial works for films theaters" - not sure if this is supposed to be "films and theaters"
 * "where Stravinsky attended a dinner at the White House with President John F. Kennedy in honor of his 80th birthday" - reword to clarify that it was Stravinsky's 80th
 * "Stravinsky returned to domestic touring in 1968 (only appearing an audience member)" - not sure what this means, was he appearing as an audience member? Does that really count as touring?
 * This is a typo, but yes, he sort of just showed up and Craft conducted the whole thing. And they still charged a ton for the tickets- weird business model but apparently successful MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Areas that could be expanded
Ligaturama (talk) 11:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The lead says Stravinsky "changed the way composers understood rhythmic structure", but I'm not sure this is solidly backed up by the Legacy section; it quotes Glass on his general massive influence, talks about the Rite as part of his artistic development, and highlights influences on Copland and Boulez, but it doesn't spell out that he changed the way they understood rhythm.
 * Elaborated a bit more on this- I don't want to get too detailed in Legacy because most of that is already covered in The Rite article, but I need to concisely convey that it was influential MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "As he began spending more time in Rimsky-Korsakov's circle of artists, the young composer became increasingly cramped in the stylistically conservative atmosphere: modern music was questioned, and concerts of contemporary music were looked down upon." - I'd like to know more about this as it seems like a key point in his development. Who was in the circle and do we have more information on what they thought about specific composers or pieces? Do we have any writings from Stravinsky himself about it, to quote for flavour?
 * Expanded a bit upon specific modern music events and other Rimsky associates, but there isn't much to be quoted. Stravinsky doesn't say much about the concerts in his autobiography, and the Craft memoirs are not reliable, so I think a good quote would be very difficult to track down. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm finding the chronology of the start of the "Ballets for Diaghilev" section quite difficult to understand. We start with Diaghilev hearing Stravinsky's 1909 pieces in February, but flip back to 1904 (turn to Paris) and 1907 (Rimsky-Korsakov). Then we're back to Diaghilev admiring Stravinsky, and so he commissions Les Sylphides and it premieres in 1909. I think I'd move the section's first sentence further down. Also, was Les Sylphides really only commissioned after February but premiered in April? That seems very fast.
 * Stravinsky only did a couple works, while other composers orchestrated the rest, however it is very little time to get finished music- that poor copyist must've been stressing about those parts... clarified in article. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Diaghilev wanted a new ballet with distinctly Russian music and design, something that had recently become popular with French and other Western audiences" - any info on why this had risen in popularity? Perhaps just the vagaries of fashion.
 * Interestingly, upon further looking into Taruskin's 2000-page tome, it was the work of Rimsky and his besties. Not surprising in the slightest, but still quite fascinating given the many connections- put into the article. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "fellow composers were impressed by the work" (The Nightingale) - a subordinate clause on what they liked about it would be nice to tie it off.
 * Added some bits, though Bartok is quite vague with his comparisons to Schoenberg MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Stravinsky made a new concert suite from The Firebird and sold it to a London publisher in an attempt to regain copyright control" - just as the topic of copyright comes up a few times in the article, if you can say how he lost copyright control then that would be nice.
 * Good idea- music copyright is one of those wildly confusing areas with so many rules, especially since classical music spans a great period of time relative to absurdly lucrative copyright laws. Added efn. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Though, some critics found it to be a turning point in Stravinsky's neoclassical music, describing it as a pure work that blended neoclassical ideas with modern methods." - this seems too significant to be pushed down to a footnote, can it be integrated with the body text?
 * "the increasingly hostile reception towards his music and failed run for a seat in the Institut de France further dissociated the man from France" - any more details on this? Trends in contemporary reactions to his works would be good for the legacy section. Similarly, footnote P on his reception in the USSR I think is too interesting to be consigned to a footnote.
 * Added a bit, but take a look and see if I interpreted your comment correctly. I'm not sure what could be added to legacy- the only actual mention of a review is in Walsh, and that's about the earlier works. What do you think could be added to legacy? Moved footnote P out too MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I missed this one. It feels like the article is teasing us with something juicy when it says that the reception to Stravinsky became "increasingly hostile" - why was it hostile, and what form did the hostility take?
 * Upon reflection I'm probably wrong about adding contemporaneous reactions to the Legacy section: they belong in the individual parts of the "Music" section, which do already touch on some of them. "Legacy" already details his overall impact in a retrospective manner, and specifically the influence of the Rite and Symphonies of Wind Instruments. It's probably a completely personal thing that I'd like to see a little more there about his neoclassical and serial periods: need to keep to summary style and all that. Ligaturama (talk) 12:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Added some reception details in a footnote. On the neoclassical and serial legacy: the impact of these works aren't immediately evident. The most I can find is that it showed how Stravinsky's unique adaptations of other styles were very effective and creative, despite those styles not being popular in the long run. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 12:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It might be worth mentioning how Vera was the wife of Serge Sudeikin, who worked with Diaghilev. She just suddenly turns up as Stravinsky's "other lover" (i.e. not Chanel), which is quite abrupt considering she goes on to become his second wife.
 * Very true, and intriguing too- added MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "From then until the early 1940s, Stravinsky diligently attended services, participated in charity work, and studied religious texts." - we never come back to why this ended in the 1940s, whether he had a crisis of faith or just fell out of the habit or whatever. There might be nothing to say, but it just stood out to me.
 * It seems that it happened around moving to the US, as opposed to just in the 40s, which I clarified- added an efn about how it's hard to determine. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Your comments are much appreciated- thank you! I'll get to them straight away MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 12:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Replies above- ones without replies were easy fixes with no extra comments needed. If any didn't quite address your points, let me know- thanks for taking the time to read this behemoth of an article! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ligaturama it is now at FAC- if you've got anything else, you can take it over to the FAC nom! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 15:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Tim riley
From a first canter-through for typos etc I take it that the text is intended to be in AmE, which is right and proper, but the King's English has crept in here and there: baptised, metres, modernised, modernising, and there are a few words and phrases that don't seem either English or American: And I believe that, Heaven knows why, it is usual to render the possessives of Ancient Greek writers as ess-apostrophe rather than ess-apostrophe-ess, so that Sophocles's should be just Sophocles'.
 * ballet-canata,
 * films theaters
 * operettists
 * virtuostic.

More later after I've had a thorough read-through.  Tim riley  talk   13:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Something made me think "virtuostic" was a word- I'm inventing a new dialect here... the clarifications are very helpful, at this point I seem to write everything in some British-American soup from "metres" to "elevators". MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 20:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Life section


 * "along Kryukov Canal" – looks a bit odd without a definite article, like saying along River Rhine or along Pacific Ocean.
 * "From age 9" – I think it is usual to give numbers up to ten in words rather than digits. Some say that applies up to twenty…
 * …and if so you'll want to adjust one of these numbers (and if not, then two will need changing): "by 16, he attended rehearsals … By age fourteen …at age fifteen finished a piano reduction".
 * "Stravinsky's first public premiere came in 1905 … when the dedicatee of the Piano Sonata, Nikolay Richter, performed it at a Rimsky-Korsakov household gathering" – a family gathering doesn't sound very public to me.
 * "modern music-oriented chamber concerts" – oh, dear! Hyphen troubles. The style-guide of the Oxford University Press of New York says "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad", and that is true. What you have written means, I think, music-oriented chamber concerts that are modern. I'd dodge the issue by rejigging as "chamber concerts oriented to modern music" or some such.
 * "contemporary French composers like Franck, Dukas, Fauré, and Debussy" – the last three I grant you, but it's pushing it a bit to call Franck (d. 1890) a contemporary composer in 1905.
 * Whereas I do agree, Stravinsky himself listen Franck's music as a regular at the concert series- cut "contemporary" but let me know if it's still odd MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "a priest who did not ask of their identities" – should the "of" be there?
 * "and the ceremony was attended only by Rimsky-Korsakov's sons" – presumably the bride and groom also attended?
 * "the Russian art magazine Mir iskusstva" – translation in brackets, please. And the Russian name needs a xxxxx tag. I'm very far from expert about language tags, and you'll get input on the subject at FAC, but I suspect you ought to use them for Les Sylphides, En blanc et noir, Les noces, Pribaoutki, commedia dell'arte, a cappella, Apollon musagète, ballet de cour, Perséphone, Jeu de cartes, Canticum Sacrum, Grande valse brillante, konzertstück (and unless you can find that in an English dictionary it needs a capital letter) L'Histoire du soldat, commedia dell'arte, Canticum Sacrum, Norddeutscher Rundfunk and Poétique musicale. These are all in the Life section. I haven't checked the later sections. Broadly, we have to put a language tag round all foreign words or phrases and, unless their meaning is obvious, give an English translation in parentheses.
 * Added lang templates for most, with some notable exceptions: I believe Renard is the name of the character, Oedipus rex is the name of the play and so does not need italicization(?), and the Requiem Canticles likely doesn't need it either. Also, are translations needed after every one? Other FAs like Ravel and Debussy don't have translated names (I use those examples since their work titles are also in French). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If the Ravel or Debussy articles were up for FAC now, rather than some years ago, reviewers or the FAC coordinators would insist on language tags and translations. Current thinking is that all articles should use the tags, for the benefit of people who use screen readers, so that, e.g. "pain" and "bras" (respectively "bread" and "arms") with a fr template would be read out correctly rather than as the very different English words spelled the same way.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Tim riley, got it then- do you have a model of how these translations should look? In parentheses after the works title the first time it's stated? Or is there a template somewhere to link with lang? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 10:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the former is usual. It's what I'm doing chez Robert Schumann, at any rate. I shall examine my conscience to see whether I feel obliged to revisit Ravel, Fauré, Debussy, Saint-Saëns and all the other FAs on French composers to which I've contributed. Don't hold your breath.  Tim riley  talk   11:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Back with comments on the Works section as soon as I can. –  Tim riley  talk   14:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "This ballet were presented by Diaghilev's ballet company" – singular noun with plural verb.
 * "(likely due to the glamorous charm of The Five's music)" – according to whom?
 * According to Taruskin, but since it's not a quote, does this need attribution? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd advise so.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Added MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Upon sharing the idea with Diaghilev, the impresario excitedly agreed" – dangling modifier: at present this says that Diaghilev shared the idea with Diaghilev. "When they shared..." would do.
 * "the ballet's experimental nature caused a sensation at its premiere" – but you say in the lead it caused a near-riot, which is a lot more than just causing a sensation.
 * "The May 1914 premiere was somewhat successful; critics' high expectations after the tumultuous Rite of Spring were not met" – sounds as though it was somewhat unsuccessful, or at best "moderately successful"
 * "on the small theater work L'Histoire du soldat" – not clear if this is a small work for theatres or a work for small theatres.
 * Really both, but clarified by saying "small-scale"; let me know if that's still unclear MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Turn towards neoclassicism" – but isn't Pulcinella, mentioned in the previous section, neoclassical?
 * These two sections are actually separated by Stravinsky's move to France, as Stravinsky lived in Switzerland when he traveled to Rome, but I had no other ideas for a subtitle. Noble opined that the Symphonies of Wind Instruments officially started his neoclassical era, Bartok thinks it's the Octet... really, I wrote it in this way because Pulcinella still has lots of Russian period elements, but the thematic idea was much like his neoclassical works. So this "turn towards neoclassicism" more refers to his regular use of this style in his music. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As you have a clear reason for what you have put in which section you should be able to see off any carping or cavilling on this point at FAC.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "their factory on the Rue Rochechouart" – looks unlikely to me that the link to the Boulevard Marguerite-de-Rochechouart is the correct one. A rue and a boulevard aren't the same.
 * I know essentially no French, so tracking down an article for this street was difficult. Do you know of the actual article (or know someone who can help me find it)? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There isn't an English Wikipedia article on the rue Rochechouart, and there isn't even a rue Rochechouart any more: it was renamed in 2019 as the rue Marguerite de Rochechouart as part of the Paris city council's drive to have more streets named after women. It runs approximately south from the boulevard Marguerite de Rochechouart, which runs east-west.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then a link probably isn't necessary- thanks for the clarification MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "producing rolls that included short spoken introductions by the composer" – really? Seems technically impossible to me. Certainly there's nothing about spoken introductions on Lawson's, pp. 293–294 as claimed.
 * While I can't find publicly available recordings of these introductions, other sources also refer to these introductions (McFarland 1994 explains the tech on page 204) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But that article doesn't say the introductions were spoken. They were printed and the texts scrolled past the reader in synch with the music from the player. Lawson says the same.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes much more sense- I interpreted "comments by Stravinsky" as literal comments. Fixed in prose MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "The mutual interest in Pushkin shared by Stravinsky and Diaghilev" – I'd be careful with "mutual". Here it means that Pushkin was interested in Stravinsky and Diaghilev as well as their being interested in him. Probably best to remove the adjective.
 * "He had abandon the Russian Orthodox Church" – abandoned?
 * "classical period composers like Handel" – Handel was pre-classical – more baroque.
 * "Basing the music off of romantic ballets" – strange phrasing: by "off of" do you mean "on"?
 * "the mediocre choreography of which Stravinsky disapproved" – better have a comma before "of", otherwise the implication is that there was also mediocre choreography of which Stravinsky approved
 * "His family subsequently moved to an apartment on the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré" – which is where the Salle Pleyel was (and is). Any connection?
 * "Stravinsky and de Bosset officially married on 9 March 1940" – can one unofficially marry?
 * I say officially because they were as close as a married couple even before Yekaterina died- she traveled with him everywhere, he trusted her with his manuscripts, she divorced her husband just to be with him- excluding the official lessens the importance of their closeness. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, but "finally" or some such would make the point while looking less incongruous.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Much better- added finally MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "The Stravinsky couple's lack of English ability" – a bit woolly: perhaps just their poor English?
 * "in which Stravinsky corrected a number of myths surrounding him" – this firm statement needs a good citation to show (i) that they were myths and (ii) that he corrected them
 * Changed it to "Stravinsky sought to correct myths" because this claim is taken directly from the source (White 1979) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Despite being largely an anti-Soviet political stunt, Stravinsky remembered the event fondly" – another dangling modifier: Stravinsky was not an anti-Soviet political stunt. "Although it was" rather than "Despite being" will fix the problem.


 * Some questions and comments above, specifically for the one about lang templates. Otherwise, all were implemented- thank you very much for the excellent help thus far! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Replies added. I'll look at the Works section later today I hope.  Tim riley  talk   08:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Concluding batch of comments:

There is excessive coverage of the "Grammy" awards. There are more important and prestigious awards for classical music such as the Grand Prix du Disque Mondiale and the Gramophone awards. My only comment here is that the word "selected" sticks out. One FA criterion is comprehensiveness, and "selected" implies incomplete. I recommend tweaking the wording to "Books and articles are listed in…"
 * Music section
 * My first comment is that there isn't much of it. The Life section runs to 4897 words (which is more than the total word count of four of the existing FAs on composers) but the Music gets just 1898 words. I don't know enough about Stravinsky's music before The Firebird and after The Rite to venture an opinion on how comprehensive the section is, but it is only 38% of the size of the Life section and I wonder about the balance. A quick word count of two existing composer FAs – Debussy and Vaughan Williams – shows that the Music sections there are 85% and 89% respectively of the length of the Life sections. The difference between the two sections in some of the other composer FAs is more marked, I grant you, but on the face of it 38% seems to me on the short side for an oeuvre of 125 works.
 * "Augurs of Spring, consisting of an E♭ dominant 7 superimposed on an F♭ major triad" – as you use the ♭ symbol here I wonder why you don't do the same for the E-flat Symphony?
 * "The musicologist Jeremy Noble says" – we could do with some consistency about tenses when reporting writers' comments: Noble says, but Stephen Walsh described, Noble describes, Donald Jay Grout described, Richard Taruskin writes, Noble considers, Bartók argues, Eric Walter White suspected.
 * "While Stravinsky did not use as many folk melodies as he had in his first three ballets, Stravinsky used folk poetry" – too many Stravinskys for smooth reading: I'd make the second a pronoun. You might perhaps go through the whole text doing the same where possible.
 * "the instrumentation of cantata" – not clear how the instrumentation of cantata differs from the instrumentation of other music.
 * "quirky musical-theatre work" – could do with an inline attribution
 * "Officially begun in 1919, the ballet Pulcinella ..." – it was either begun in 1919 or it wasn't: "officially" seems strange.
 * Legacy
 * "As Philip Glass wrote in Time" – careful with the "As" – it appears to give Wikipedia's endorsement of what Glass says.
 * "academics saw this stylistic shift as not innovative enough since the technique's inventor had died" – I don't follow this. What has the death of Schoenberg got to do with how innovative Stravinsky's use of the system was?
 * "the music of Stravinsky now stands out as a body of unique ingenuity" – inline attribution definitely needed here.
 * "His music is influential to young composers, who find inspiration and unique methodology…" – but that isn't quite what Walsh says, which is "For younger composers of almost every persuasion, his work has continued to offer inspiration and a source of method". Nothing about uniqueness, and I don't see where the second half of your sentence comes from.
 * Recordings
 * Writings

That's all from me. Let me conclude with a digression: I never saw Stravinsky conduct, but an older colleague of mine did, and told me that this frail old man came on – "he looked as though a puff of wind would blow him away" – but as soon as his baton descended the orchestra played as if electrified. That's enough WP:OR. Over to you.  Tim riley  talk   11:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your help, you have a unique way with words that really brings together an article! See you at the Schumann FAC MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 11:07, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I forgot to look at the Lead, but now I do so I have no comments except that you really must remove the linked "List of compositions" from the info-box. The manual of style specifies that an info-box sums up what is in the article, and there is no excuse for ignoring that rule by taking the unfortunate reader to an entirely different article. There was a similarly offending link in the Schumann article, but I've removed it before I venture to FAC. (Thank you for your kind remark about my prose.)  Tim riley  talk   11:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This discussion recently posited that MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE does not disallow these types of links, since they are helpful to the reader, but I do acknowledge that it wasn't a binding RfC. Still, I believe the ~12 people who agreed that MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE doesn't prohibit these links is a good show of support-
 * I think it's a rotten trick to play on our poor readers. They want to know what's in this article, not another one. There is already a link to that article at the top of the works section.  Tim riley  talk   11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Other questions: I'm not sure Stravinsky has received any other notable awards. Based on what I can find, he never won the Grand Prix, and the only Gramophone awards he "won" were as part of a piano album by Simon Trpceski (who was the named recipient of the award). Craft did receive a Grand Prix for his recordings of Stravinsky's works, but that seems odd to mention here rather than on his article.
 * How odd! So be it.  Tim riley  talk   11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * On your comment about the size of the music section: I am unsure of how to expand it further. Debussy's Life was (sadly) much shorter than Stravinsky's, so it makes sense that the music section would be of similar size. Vaughan Williams did have a long life, which is reflected in the section, but the "Music" section covers his music much more individually. Many of the paragraphs (especially under stage works) discuss individual works that don't have articles, but for Stravinsky, nearly every one of his works has an article. I wanted to keep Stravinsky's music section as an overview of his style, discussing works that contributed to that style or helped develop it and how they developed it. If this is an odd way to approach the section, let me know, but in my mind readers who are more interested in the details of the works will navigate to the works' articles. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 10:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * An excellent rule is, If you have no more to say, say no more. If you are happy with the length of the Music section I doubt if FAC reviewers will raise any objections. Your rationale seems to me to be rock solid.  Tim riley  talk   11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Afterthought: you haven't much discussed Stravinsky's mastery of orchestration. Writing about Ravel the critic Alexis Roland-Manuel wrote, "In reality he is, with Stravinsky, the one man in the world who best knows the weight of a trombone-note, the harmonics of a 'cello or a pp tam-tam in the relationships of one orchestral group to another." Might be worth a sentence or two. Citation is in the Ravel article.  Tim riley  talk   13:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can't believe I forgot about this! Yes, of course a Rimsky student would have such iconic orchestration. I'll look more into it, and I will try to get to FAC soon- we will get to experience the rare moment of two composers being at FAC simultaneously! Many thanks, MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 20:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm leaving the Schumann PR open for a couple of weeks in the hope that Aza24 may be able to look in again, and I shall not feel you're jumping the queue on me if you go to FAC first. Please do not omit to give me a shout when you get there.  Tim riley  talk   11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Tim riley implemented the last of the comments here, so off to FAC we go- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 15:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda
I'll read again, as in the first peer review, and comment as I read, inspired by The Rite of Spring anniversary of premiere. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead
 * "he met Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov and studied under him until Rimsky-Korsakov's death in 1908" - could be simpler "under him until his death"
 * Similarly, do we need S.'s name twice in the following sentence?
 * I think the lead should mention precisely that the ballets were premiered in Paris, instead of a vague "international".
 * In Memoriam Dylan Thomas should have an article if so important.
 * Agreed- perhaps I'll create after this PR wraps up. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Early ...
 * The sentence about his father seems to have two verbs. Perhaps mention "descended" first, then profession. I confess to have no idea what an "established" bass is, and perhaps link to bass (voice type).
 * please check ref order (noticed after "denied by our parents"
 * "a school he had few friends in and hated" - had to read that twice ;)

Student ...
 * "modern music-oriented chamber concerts" - I read that as modern concerts?

First marriage
 * "before [his 1910 ballet] The Firebird" - I believe we don't need the explanation, because even readers who don't identify the composer with this piece will have read about it in the lead.

Ballets ...
 * I don't think we need to say that Lausanne is in Switzerland, but if, it needs a comma.
 * Well, I did not know where Lausanne is, so I assumed my fellow Americans wouldn't either- added the comma. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I like German authentic words, but konzertstück reads awkward and is a redirect anyway, - perhaps better English.
 * Walsh, White, and Stravinsky himself called the original drafts a konzertstuck, so I think the form's German nature is important to keep. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the image of music from Sacre should not come left and without a link before that ballet is even mentioned.
 * Fair- I moved the music to the right and pinned the Diaghilev painting on the left. Having them both on the right makes it a little cluttered (for my taste) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "sharing" is good, but the word seems to come too often ;)
 * "sensation" doesn't explain the lead's "near-riot", - the riot seems to be Life more than Music

Religious
 * Nice perhaps needs no France.
 * My lack of European geography knowledge is the reason this is here (same with Lausanne), though this one may be more recognizable than I perceive it to be... MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Read until header Music, need a break. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Music
 * I don't think we need to repeat "serial" in the same sentence.

Student works
 * "however, critics found the works to actually lack stylistic singularity" - nothing in the sentences before suggests singularity, so why "however"?

First ballets
 * The section repeats much from the life section, in the first para without adding to musical aspects (which could therefore be omitted or expanded). I'd like more of a split between who did what when here and the music there.
 * Cut some event details- I'm trying not to go too deep into these works, since they're his most notable works but all have very unique characteristics. Instead I'm trying to connect these works to his broader style- is there anything else notable you think could be added, just from knowing Firebird and The Rite? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian
 * "cantata" is linked here which should have happened further up

Legacy
 * The first sentence of the second para has "works" three times ;)

Need a break again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Some replies above with questions- thank you for everything so far! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 01:22, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Accept geography, - I might not be able to place medium-size towns to their correct U.S. state ;) - I'll look again next week. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gerda Arendt I've opened the FAC nom, so any remaining comments can go there, but no rush- thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) <small style="font-size:66%;">(also not me) <small style="font-size:45%;">(still no) 15:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

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I added this article to the FAC peer review sidebar. Please consider reviewing some articles listed there. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)