Wikipedia:Peer review/Inanna/archive1

Inanna
I have listed this article for peer review because I have been working very hard trying to improve it and would very much like to eventually bring it up to Good Article status. I would greatly appreciate any feedback and constructive criticism that can be offered. Thank you very much. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Comments groupuscule (talk) 08:40, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for your well-written and well-researched contributions to this article. Here are some ideas to consider as you continue to improve it. Sorry in advance for whatever mistakes and misreadings I commit in the course of this review.

Lead
 * The use of an image from the "Ishtar vase" leads the reader to wonder whether they are actually seeing artwork intended to depict "Ishtar". Despite the proposition that Inanna = Ishtar, two separate articles exist, so perhaps it would be good to hunt for a depiction from the appropriate time period. Or, if not, add some kind of explanatory note.
 * The word "sukkal", which I think is not yet English, is undefined in the intro (and a few more times). A section near the end of the article says "her sukkal, or personal attendant". Consider moving this up, and maybe providing more information, as elsewhere on the web people seem to think that "sukkal" means high chancellor or something.
 * The intro is maybe, maybe, a little long on summarizing the underworld story, and a little short on describing Inanna's role in Sumerian society.

Origins
 * Maybe use an image from this Uruk Vase.
 * The origins section mostly describes the two earliest representations. Is it possible to bring in some informed commentary about how "Inanna" coalesced into being the goddess of love and war, and the primary deity of Uruk? I recognize that such thinking may seem blasphemous to Inanna worshippers but I think it's terrain we might nevertheless want to explore ;-)
 * The idea described in the third paragraph, about Inanna's rising relative significance, is interesting and follows the lines I'm angling at in the preceding comment. In fact, when I look at the article's revision history, I wonder if this paragraph is intended to suggest that Inanna herself is a late addition to the Sumerian pantheon. If so that is not what the text conveys on first read—it only seems to say (to me) that the myth about the mes is a late addition. Either way this would be a great place for some clarification and maybe expansion with more sources.


 * Etymology : If possible please clarify this a little further for the education of non-readers of Sumerian and Akkadian in the audience.
 * If her sign is 𒈹 (or 𒀭𒈹 with deity prefix added), and 𒈹 is supposed to be pronounced "MUŠ", why do we even think her name is "Inanna"?
 * Okay, let's say Inanna = nin-an-ak (is it only by convention, then, that we are spelling her name "Inanna"?); nin=lady, an=sky, ak = ?
 * Harris 1991 is unnecessarily taking up two footnotes, by the way.
 * The reasoning Harris (or someone else, described by her?) uses for Inanna being a "proto-Euphratean" borrowing is not quite clear, especially if one does not understand the first propositions in this section. And then we find out her view is not widely accepted by modern Assyriologists—but what do they think?
 * Anything else you can throw at this, to add some clarity and maybe depth, would be great. And if modern scholars really have no idea why x, y, or z, just say that. But maybe you can explain a little more how they do know what they say they know.

Worship
 * I see that modern-day "Warka (Iraq)" is hopefully redlinked in a footnote. What's the deal with that? Is there anything going on there besides excavation of "Uruk"?
 * Why (based on what evidence) is Eanna believed to have housed priestesses of Inanna?
 * Who is Gwendolyn Leick? and whence her opinion on "persons of asexual or [?] hermaphroditic bodies" at Inanna's temples?
 * "Equinox" doesn't need to be capitalized. Actually neither does "New Year Festival". "Consort" doesn't need to be wikilinked.
 * Consider citing Kramer directly rather than "Biblioteca Pleyades" :-)

Iconography
 * Can you present an example or two showing how the eight-pointed star has been established as a symbol of Inanna? Maybe this could be done visually, maybe even with a bigger crop of the image currently used?
 * Speaking of which the star here seems like more of an Ishtar star, regarding which see the first comment. At any rate date and location should be given in the caption.
 * cuneiform ideogram probably doesn't need to be wikilinked. Or, at least, cuneiform doesn't, here (but maybe it should be in the etymology section).
 * Is 𒈹 supposed to be the "hook-shaped twisted knot of reeds" and if so how is that known?
 * Inanna as the planet Venus
 * Was Inanna indeed associated with both the morning star and the evening star? (And yet were they truly regarded as two stars?)
 * "There are hymns to Inanna as her astral manifestation" somehow reads a little confusing. Not sure why. Maybe something to do with the premise that her "astral manifestation" is not primary.
 * The reference at the end of this interesting and provocative paragraph is a short article from Universe Today website, talking about Ancient Greece. *sad trombone* The basic facts about Venus's visibility don't require a reference. But the "it is also believed" claims about Inanna as celestial allegory do. [OK I see you have a source later. So just merge the paragraphs.
 * You can toss the first part and the last part of the next paragraph which restate the facts about Venus. In fact you may wish to rewrite this whole section (much of which I think predates your recent edits). The third paragraph (which I think you worked on) is quite solid, presuming that it's true and accurately reflects Cooley 2008. More sources wouldn't be bad though.
 * Anything more on Inanna & Pisces? Is this from names found together in a table or something else?

Character
 * Is Voices From The Clay the source for the text of the poem, and Black & Green 1992 the source for the rest of the commentary in the paragraph, above and below? The first sentence could be tempered a little.
 * This section could be expanded. Right now its theme is the contradictions in her character, which are certainly interesting—but perhaps a general picture could be fleshed out a little more. On the other hand maybe one needs only to read on . ..

Mythology
 * The huluppu tree: Nice work, very solid.
 * I guess it wouldn't hurt to throw in a cuneiform "-gram" for huluppu.
 * Interesting connection to Lilith although "Biblical" might not be the best epithet for her.
 * Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta
 * No need for "[sic.; alternate spelling of 'Inanna']" — more distracting than helpful. You could also take out the bracketed explanation that Kulaba is a district in Uruk, and move that to somewhere in the text introducing the quotation.
 * I see that all the footnotes here are to lines in a translation of the text. That's okay, although maybe not necessary—or, maybe, it might be neater to use in-text citations with line numbers. (Also, who is the author of this translation?)
 * If Inanna does indeed play a central role in the story, it's not quite clear from the plot summary given here. Since there's already an article about the story as a whole maybe this section could be boiled down to focus on Inanna's role.
 * Theft of the mes
 * Very interesting. If more sources beyond Kramer are available definitely bring them in.
 * The word "even" in the phrase "even prostitution" might constitute unnecessary editorialization.
 * Destruction of Ebih
 * Maybe move down Kramer's interpretation to after the outline of the story.
 * Give bibliographic information for the translation used as a source.
 * Maybe should say "Theology professor Jeffrey Cooley" ...
 * Humbling of Gudam: any secondary sources?
 * Takeover of the Eanna Temple: any secondary sources?
 * Courtship of Inanna and Dumuzid: comparable to Cain and Abel because there's a farmer and a shepherd? Maybe either remove this or expand on it.
 * Descent into the Underworld
 * The two images here kind of crowd the text at the start of the section.
 * Kur again? Is there supposed to be no relationship between "Kur" here and the "Kur" (=dragon?) in the Ebih story?
 * Some arguably run-on sentences in paragraphs 2 and 3.
 * "attested" [laws of the underworld] = described in other texts? or presented here?
 * held -> holds (for tense consistency); do something about "are each representations"; in fact, just copyedit this whole section.
 * Maybe explain the sources and translator of the primary version of the story presented here.
 * Interchangeable use of Dumuzi/Dumuzid adds a little confusion, maybe pick one and stick with it.
 * Ereshkigal over-wiki-linked. And, maybe explain who she is earlier in the story.
 * Who is Clyde Hostetter? The explanation (of his explanation) of a celestial allegory could be improved. Since the timing of Venus's disappearance wouldn't depend the events of the equinox, is this supposed to describe something that happened one particular year?

Related deities
 * The paragraph on her family is good.
 * The two paragraphs here should be in different sections, since relatedness of mythological family is rather different than relatedness of analogues in different cultures.
 * In a new section on analogous deities, expand the second paragraph with more detail on the Ishtar connection and any others. The list of other goddesses in the "See also" department can be folded in.
 * The underworld descent story, which concludes with an explanation about the seasons, has surely been compared to the Greek story of Persephone.

Role in modern feminism
 * "One modern work has even gone so far as to claim [...]" -- maybe it would be simpler just to say who claimed this and why.
 * Improve reference for Kleiner painting exhibition.
 * "Anne O Nomis"? OK, whatever floats your boat.

Dates
 * Great idea but needs work. Are these supposed to be probable dates composed? Dates of oldest surviving text? More info for each entry and generally would help.

Bibliography
 * Move texts which aren't cited in footnotes from Bibliography to Further reading.

General
 * If you have access to a university library, try to hunt down some more sources, probably articles in scholarly periodicals. These will fill holes, resolve discrepancies (or highlight important ones), and add context.
 * A quick search on the public version of Google Scholar turned up Collins, "The Sumerian Goddess Inanna (3400-2200 BC)" (1994), which isn't even paywalled :-) and has lots of juicy info on temples and symbolism.
 * Kurtik, "The identification of inanna with the planet venus: A criterion for the time determination of the recognition of constellations in ancient mesopotamia" (1998) is paywalled but seems pretty pertinent to our questions. And I'm sure you can find lots more.
 * As mentioned above it would be good to include some informed commentary which connects the mythology of Inanna with the larger context of Sumerian civilization.
 * It would also be helpful to include a section on the archaeological and interpretive history around Inanna, so readers could get a sense of where all this information is coming from and which facts are the most and least definite.

I hope you find some of these comments helpful. Thanks again for the work you've put in and good luck as you continue!
 * Thank you very much for all your feedback. I really appreciate it. I have already begun to implement a few of the changes you suggested in this peer review and will continue to implement the other changes you suggested as I continue working to improve this article. In the meantime, I will offer this response to a few of the questions you raised:
 * In regards to the main image, I have had a bit of a problem with it for the reasons you mentioned for a while now, but I have not replaced it because I cannot find any good images of Sumerian depictions of Inanna anywhere on Wikimedia Commons; all of the images available seem to be of Akkadian and Old Babylonian depictions of Ishtar.
 * I would very much like for this article to discuss Inanna's origins. Unfortunately, I have not yet found any information about them in any of my sources. This does not necessarily mean that the information is not there, only that I have not found it yet.
 * You mentioned the pronunciation of Inanna's name and the Sumerian glyphs for it. I, sadly, cannot read Sumerian, but I may be able to find another user somewhere who can help with this.
 * Nonetheless, I do know that the word Kur was, rather confusingly, the Sumerian word for "mountain," but also the name of the first dragon, and also the name for the Underworld, making it very difficult at times to tell which of the three is being referred to. This is all explained in the Kur article, but I will try to make this point more explicit in this article as well.
 * The citation to Clyde Hostetter was here before I came so I am not entirely sure who he is and I do not have copies of any of his writings.
 * I am not aware of any works comparing the Inanna descent story and the Greek story of Persephone, but I do know for certain that the part of the story involving Dumuzid is widely thought to be the ultimate source of the Greek legend of Adonis (via the later Babylonian and Phoenician retellings of it). This may be worth mentioning in the new "Influence on other pantheons" section that I have just added in accordance with your requests.
 * "Anne O Nomis," I am assuming based on the obvious pun in the name, is probably some kind of pseudonym. The citation to her was put here long before I came along. I was a little bit leery about leaving it in since, judging from the title of her book, she seems to apparently be some kind of popular-level erotic nonfiction author, rather than a trained scholar of near-eastern studies.
 * I, unfortunately, do not have access to a university library, which has been, to a large extent, the greatest hindrance to my work here at Wikipedia. I do have a large assortment of scholarly books in my personal collection, but nothing I have access to is even remotely comparable to a full, university-level library. As for online sources, all I have access to are ones that are free and open to anyone who has a computer. I will admit that my frustrating lack of access to reliable sources may play a relatively large role in holding me back while I am working to improve this article. Nonetheless, I will try to find more sources to use. As I search for more sources, I may find more answers to some of the questions that you have brought up. --Katolophyromai (talk) 18:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * In regards to your questions about Inanna's name, it looks like the cuneiform transliteration at the beginning of the article was incorrect, which is what I have suspected for a while. I think that the transliteration may have actually been the transliteration for some other cuneiform word and it just somehow got copied into this article. The article for Ishtar and several other articles I think all have exactly the same transliteration in it, which I suspect is also wrong. --Katolophyromai (talk) 10:34, 8 May 2017 (UTC)