Wikipedia:Peer review/Independence Pass (Colorado)/archive1

Independence Pass (Colorado)
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because, as usual, one of my just-thought-I'd-do-this-quickly expansions of an article on something I had a personal connection to (went through the pass on my way to Aspen two years ago) turned into something a lot larger when I realized all the information that was available. I see a potential for GA or FA here ... what further improvements could be made?

Thanks, Daniel Case (talk) 17:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

'Added caveat for comments below: I have a bad habid of saying "you've done this or that", when in reality I obviously have no idea who really did it. So by "you" I just mean "whomever did this". It's just something that comes out when I type, assuming the person submitting the article really did write whatever it is I'm talking about. Sorry.'


 * Not a problem, although in this case I am responsible for most of the article. Especially for not having done a hard-copy edit before submitting this. AAAARRRGGHH! Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments, Part 1 of 2
 * Lead


 * Including the elevation in the first sentence doesn't quite feel right, and here's why:
 * It interrupts the flow of the sentence.
 * Since the elevation seems to vary depending on where in the pass you are (rather than a simple summit), it feels too specific for this kind of geological structure.
 * Other featured articles from WikiProject Mountains don't use that structure for the opening sentence.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The sentence beginning with "It is traversed by" has some awkward syntax issues. I get what it's saying, and the note is fine, but it's a passive statement rather than an active one.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Additionally, the highway isn't mentioned in the rest of the article. Per WP:LEAD, the section needs to summarize the rest of the article. Generally speaking, something so specific as the highway information is fine in the lead, but it should definitely be part of the rest of the article.
 * You could probably delete "in itself".


 * You have "tree-line" hyphenated here, but elsewhere in the article (and in Wikipedia's own article) it's two separate words.
 * Rather than at the end of the sentence (where it feels awkward), "to the east" could probably go directly after "Mount Elbert".
 * ✅ Actually, makes more sense before "Mount Elbert", as that way it doesn't disrupt the appositive phrase.


 * Comma after "Since 2011".
 * "land beyond" could probably be "land to the east" to make it more specific.
 * ✅ That's west, actually, Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I think "giving its current name" is supposed to be "giving it its current name", but that sounds awkward. Maybe "giving the pass its current name".
 * ✅ I just stuck with "it" since the antecedent is clear. Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "abandoned and neglected" - To sound more chronological, "neglected and abandoned" might work a bit better here.
 * "in the 20th century" - Maybe a bit more specific here?
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Geography


 * Comma after "North of the pass".
 * Semicolons are fine, but you have about five of them just in the last few sentences of the Lead and first few sentences of this section. You might want to consider mixing the punctuation up a bit.
 * ✅ Redid a couple of sentences. Daniel Case (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph is a bit hard to follow, just too many pronouns, subject changes, and complex syntax.
 * ✅ And got rid of another semicolon. Daniel Case (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "Beyond Aspen". Also after "On both approaches".
 * ✅ In the latter case I see your point, as the following sentence has a colon. Daniel Case (talk)


 * You can probably delete "eventually".
 * ✅. Daniel Case (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "Twin Lakes Reservoir".
 * "West of the parking area" - Speaking generally, you may want to consider restructuring this section to function as more of a "tour" than it is. As it is, it feels as though all of the features are listed in random order. By going from one locale to the next, it may be easier to follow in the long run. For example, placing this information after the paragraph about the parking lot might make it easier for readers to find their bearings.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "13,020-foot (3,970 m) summit"
 * "even more expansive views" - This isn't my area of expertise, but I'm not sure if you can really quantify expansiveness.
 * ✅ Took care of both by deleting the phrase. Daniel Case (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "Across the road".
 * History


 * "Before settlers arrived" At some point, the Ute must be considered settlers as well. To clarify, this might be better as "European" or "Western" settlers.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "It was not until Ferdinand Hayden and his team, who surveyed it in 1873." - Fragment
 * ✅ I think I rewrote something and had forgotten to fix this. Daniel Case (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "At the time".
 * "Three years later, in 1876" - You only really need one or the other. I would go with "In 1876,".
 * Comma after the other "At the time".
 * There's more awkward syntax in "from Denver, the capital, as Leadville." The clause stuck in there makes the sentence sound strange.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I think there's a verb missing somewhere in "abundant silver deposits further west, over the Divide." I'm also not sure if "Divide" should be capitalized there.
 * ✅ The first half, anyway.


 * Comma after the third "At the time".
 * May want to take the "still" out of "still not made peace", since it inserts a minor bit of POV there.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * In this paragraph, there are quite a few pronouns filling in for "settlers", which are only mentioned at the beginning of the first sentence. By the time the reader gets to "some", then "they", "they" again.
 * ✅ I also split up the last sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 17:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "in modern dollars" - I think the proper term is "in 2012 dollars", but since we're talking about inflation from a period from a long time ago, I think it might be better to add an "approximately" in there.
 * Also, I think the citation there goes outside of the parentheses.
 * "an early investor in mines at Aspen, further down the valley, where silver had been found in even greater abundance than Independence's gold," - Going to have to take out at least two of these interjected clauses to keep the sentence afloat. Otherwise you're interjecting an interjection to an interjection.
 * ✅ Redid the sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "stagecoaches were charged" - I think you mean that settlers were charged that for stagecoaches, rather than the stagecoaches actually charging people.
 * ✅ I thought the meaning was pretty clear but I put it in the active all the same. Daniel Case (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Rather than "deep enough", I think you meant "too deep".
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

More comments on the rest of the article to come, including some positive stuff. I'm not trying to rag on your hard work here; just bear with me. Runfellow (talk) 02:53, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comma after "During the summer".

Comments, Part 2 of 2
 * History (Con't)


 * I don't think "added to Independence's economy" really works. Something can't add to the economy, but it can lead to its improvement in some way.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "and the decline in population and Independence's remote location and severe high-altitude winters" - Just too many conjunctions there.
 * ✅ Broke up the sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "diminishing Independence's economy" - Same kind of thing as above. Something can hurt or help the economy, but "diminishing" just sounds a odd.
 * When they moved "en masse", did they literally all leave at the same time? If not, that phrase isn't correct. If it's just meant to mean "all of them", it seems redundant anyway since the phrase begins with "all but one".
 * ✅ Changed to "as a group", which is more clearly what I wanted to say. Daniel Case (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "a thousand" - Not sure, but I think 1,000 is more appropriate here when we're talking about population figures. Check the MOS.
 * Is it "it would be closed" or "it was closed" or "it is closed" during the winter months?
 * ✅ Went back to the simple past. Daniel Case (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "In 1967".
 * Environment


 * I'd delete the superfluous "that has forced the closure of roads over the pass during that season since 1886".
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Seems like there should be a simpler word than "attenuated" that could be used, especially since it is the thin soil that is attenuating (or "making thinner") the season, which sounds weird.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Pruningly speaking, "Geologically" can be deleted.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Visitor attractions


 * "Many of those from outside the region who drive through Independence Pass stop at the parking lot and" - seems like a complicated way of saying "Many visitors".
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "In clear enough weather".
 * Since Elbert's elevation is already mentioned earlier, I don't think it's necessary to repeat it now.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "To the west".
 * You've already wikilinked "Fourteeners" earlier, no need to do it here too.
 * "The Roaring Fork Valley between it and Difficult Campground, 3 miles (4.8 km) east of Aspen, has many popular rock climbing areas" - I'm lost.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "the most popular" with whom? And how do you know?
 * ✅ It was in the source, but I decided to change it to "frequently visited", which communicates the same information without being so peacock-y. Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete "itself".
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "A pair of rocks along either side of Highway 82 on the east approach to the pass have also become a popular bouldering spot" - delete "a", because "spot" needs to be plural here.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Described as "nipple-deep" - by whom?
 * "eight miles (14.4 km) to the west" to the west of what?
 * "the village whose establishment on July 4 led to the pass's current name" - This seems redundant since this information is covered in the history section.
 * Comma after "In 1973".
 * "the impact on the pass's environment" I think there needs to be a "of the campers" after "impact", otherwise this feels awkward.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Travel advisories and restrictions


 * So far, you've used the Oxford comma, so there should be one after "buses".
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "have been suggested" Getting quite a few passive sentences here, which often let us skip important details, like who suggested the fine increases. This is an issue with this section in general.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The sentences " At 12,000 feet (3,700 m), there is significantly less oxygen" start to feel like a how-to manual rather than an encyclopedia article. Advice (even good advice) doesn't really fit in this kind of article.
 * ✅ I condensed that to just a sentence and added it to the previous graf. Daniel Case (talk) 16:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Independence Pass Foundation


 * "From the days of the stage road" should be "Since the days of the stage road," (note the comma)
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "less than" should be "fewer than", I think. But I could be wrong.
 * Comma after "Later in the decade".
 * Comma after "in the later decades of the 20th century".
 * Comma after " In 2009"
 * To make this better, you could go from "Twice it has been canceled" to "It has been cancelled twice". But to make it best go with "(whomever) cancelled it twice..." and then continue the sentence.
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * General notes
 * Structure stuff


 * I'm not sure if there's a template out there that says otherwise, but I would highly recommend moving the history section above the geography and making the environment section a subsection of geography. In fact, you may even be able to completely eliminate the "Environment" heading altogether.
 * That said, I'd also move the section on the IPF to a subsection in the history section above.
 * The block quote from the book seems like a good inclusion, but it might be better suited to the geography section, since it describes the landscape more than the actual history of the area.
 * After you have a set idea as far as structure goes, then go back and mess with the lead, ensuring that any information in the lead is a summary of what's in the article, no more, no less. Having a clearer flow to the article will make writing the lead that much easier later on.


 * Wording Stuff:


 * It might be a bit of a bear, but some time, you'll want to go through and rephrase a lot of your "had", "have", and other similar phrases. Do a ctrl+f search on all of the "had" on the page. Some of them are fine, others could be changed into clearer phrases. For example:
 * "Aspen, too, had begun to fall on hard times due" to "Aspen, too, fell on hard times"
 * "Governor Frederick Walker Pitkin had ordered all settlers to stay to the east" to "Governor Frederick Walker Pitkin ordered all settlers to stay to the east"
 * "some miners had become rich" to "some miners became rich"
 * Sometimes it's just a matter of removing the word: "permanent buildings had replaced the original tents" to "permanent buildings replaced the original tents"
 * Same thing goes for "Have", but sometimes it's a bit more complicated:
 * "On the days after the pass reopens in the spring, backcountry skiers often take advantage of the remaining snow on the slopes. They have been attracted by powder that has been described as "nipple-deep"." to "Backcountry skiers, attracted by snow they describe as "nipple-deep", often take advantage of the remaining snow on the slopes after the pass reopens in the spring."
 * Remember that introductory clauses need a comma after them. The ones I've mentioned in the notes are just of the few I noted offhand.

I try not to act like a total jerk when I do this, so I make an effort to put in some positive notes here.
 * Positive notes
 * There are some really great images here, obviously, and I think some of them might deserve some more space. You may want to consider using some kind of wide image template to head one of your sections.
 * There's plenty of content here, and the primary the primary task for any editor here seems to be just shaping it into what it needs to be. That means much of the hard work is done, thankfully.
 * I sense a lot of soul went into the project in order to leave no stone unturned, and though I didn't check research for this review, it seems fairly thorough and well-sourced in general.
 * With such a large geographical formation that contains such a deep human history as well, I can see how it would be hard to manage and organize this information in a way that the reader can understand. I think with just a little work, it can be clearer, but even as it is now, it's not too bad.

Best of luck in improving the article. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Runfellow (talk) 05:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)