Wikipedia:Peer review/James Milner/archive3

James Milner
Transferring feedback from FAC page. I won't be nominating it again. Or at leaste not until can can be sure the the prose is brilliant which I didn't really do last time.Buc 14:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you get what I mean about the subordinate clauses?
 * Great content and I admire the hard work that's gone into this article. The prose really needs some work though. I see that the article has gone under the copy editing knife quite a few times, and a lot of the problems have been fixed. However, I think one major issue which detracts from the readability are the unwieldy subordinate clauses, examples of which I have italicized below:
 * "he did confirm that he was frustrated at not being used as a starter for most of the season."
 * "As well as not making Milner a regular in the Newcastle side, Souness controversially remarked..."
 * "a clause in Newcastle's purchase of Nolberto Solano from Aston Villa resulted in Milner being loaned to Villa for the rest of the season."
 * "Leeds' eventual relegation to the Championship led to speculation over Milner's future at the club, despite having signed a five-year deal with Leeds the previous year."
 * This is done to link facts together and stop it from reading as a list of random facts. Buc 15:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Instead of reading like a long list of random facts, it is now just very difficult to read. There are other ways to write without using complicated expressions. A random fact is a random fact, whether it is in a list or shoehorned into the prose. Choosing one of the examples above, I might rewrite it to something along the lines of:
 * "Souness did not use Milner as a regular and controversially remarked "..." (which led to) ..." If this is integrated well, it won't feel listy. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 16:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Another problem is run-ons, such as:
 * "In a match against Chelsea a month later, Milner scored again using a first touch of the ball that was described as "a beauty" and allowed him to avoid a tackle from Chelsea defender, Marcel Desailly, this created a yard of space for him to deliver a curling shot a goal from 18 yards away" And I don't quite understand "using a first touch of the ball"
 * "At the start of the 2003–04 season, Milner was sent on a month-long loan to Division Two side Swindon Town to gain experience as a first team player, which, prior to the stint, he saw as an experience which would be valuable to him progressing as a player." Again, this is unwieldy. Although the grammatical structures may be technically correct, some of them are very long and unwieldy. Rewording some of these structures would improved readability immensely. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 20:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay I've spilt upsome of the longer sentences. Buc 17:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Run ons? what are they? Buc 15:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See Run-on sentence. In the example above "...Marcel Desailly, this created a yard..." The comma after Desailly's name is where the run-on occurs (in this arrangement, The Elements of Style refer to it as a comma splice). This sentence has other complicated problems, such as "a curling shot a goal" I'm not sure what is meant here. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 16:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written. Please find a copy-editor who's unfamiliar with the text.
 * It's already had about 5. Buc 17:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "James Philip Milner (born 4 January 1986, Wortley, West Yorkshire) is an English footballer who plays as a winger and left-sided midfielder, for the English club Newcastle United." Just run past me why the comma is appropriate in the opening sentence. ✅
 * "long distance running"—Hyphen required; it's even pipe-linked to an article with the hyphen. ✅
 * He "was a season ticket holder at the club"? Is that notable enough to have right at the top?
 * I think so. Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Milner began his career at Leeds United, by joining the Leeds United academy in 1996." Another errant comma. ✅
 * "his first appearance for the first team"—Ungainly rep.
 * What saying "first" twice? Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "While at Leeds United, Milner spent some time on loan at Swindon Town to gain first team experience"—Last three words won't be clear to non-experts. Remove "some".
 * Disagree. "some" is a useful modifier, excluding "much". Last three words aren't jargon, but first-team should be hyphenated. --Dweller 12:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "At Under-17 level he helped"—Comma would be easier for our readers, as you've used elsewhere in this context. Tony   (talk)  14:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Milner with Leeds during the 2002–03 season."—This caption is not a full sentence: see MOS on captions. ✅
 * "The final total paid was £5,000,000 after a certain number of appearances"—Don't we know how many?
 * No, ref doesn't say. Buc 21:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Warm-up" image: you couldn't sharpen it and add saturation, could you? Software for doing this is commonplace.
 * "and his teammates and is regarded is being fairly quick"—A gem. Tony   (talk)  14:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Those were examples of why the whole article needs attention, not the full deal. Tony   (talk)  03:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok I'd love to know what other problems are so I can fix them. Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Response: it's very hard to do it yourself, as you're too close to it. Find a collaborator who's interested in the topic, or the general area, and who can copy-edit. Tony   (talk)  15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, APR t 00:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)