Wikipedia:Peer review/Jeremy Thorpe/archive1

Jeremy Thorpe
This peer review discussion has been closed.

A year or so ago I created Thorpe affair, a somewhat dismal account of the British Liberal Party leader's arraignment for conspiracy and incitement to murder. Last December Thorpe died, and a new biography came out – publication had been delayed by the libel laws. I thought this was a great opportunity to expand Thorpe's biographical article, and try to put his whole life into perspective. Well, here it is, I've done my best – but I suppose, inevitably, the things that will stick in readers' minds are the extraordinary events that ended his career. Comments warmly welcomed. Brianboulton (talk) 21:48, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Very quick comment, as RL has me busy: check your references. There are mounds of HARV errors, particularly with the Freeman & Penrose book. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This is my first solo attempt to bring my referencing methods out of the age of steam, and I am floundering somewhat. I will do what I can, but I may need further guidance here. Brianboulton (talk) 22:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * (later) I believe I've fixed all those listed below by Wehwalt, except Freeman and Penrose, and Chippindale and Leigh. I've obviously misunderstood something about double authors, but I cannot work out what. Perhaps someone knowledgeable will oblige? Brianboulton (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * (later still, midnight oil ablaze) I think I've cracked it now. So I can enjoy my day off tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 00:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

– Can you tell me if the HARV errors have all been resolved? Brianboulton (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't see any now. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:09, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Just a few
 * Lede
 * "and was leader of the Liberal Party" possibly "and as leader of the Liberal Party"
 * Oxford
 * The first paragraph contains "Trinity" three times. I think the middle one is not needed.
 * Barrister at law
 * "where he worked tirelssly" I'm doing this offline so must leave it to you.
 * Consecutive sentences in the final paragraph begin "However" and "although" which may be a bit too much contrasting.
 * "these sexual preferences" why the plural?
 * MP
 * "link road" this may puzzle American readers.
 * Wikilink added Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "during the 1961–62" typo, again offline.
 * "East Africa, visiting both Zambia and Rhodesia" They qualify as East Africa? And given the mention of the federation two paragraphs ago, of which both were members, something could be said to connect it.
 * Well, Central and East. I have added a footnote explaining the post-federation status of Zambia and Rhodesia. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * First phase
 * "When Grimond finally resigned, on 17 January 1967" possibly it was finally to Thorpe and the other leadership contenders, but I don't see that the text justifies the implication that he held on until his fingers had to be pried off. He had done well, considering.
 * He indicated that he would resign shortly after the March 1966 election, and did so ten months later, so your finger-prising analogy might be somewhat apt – he certainly took his time. I have, however, removed "finally". Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * " at the end of the first ballot," Why not "after" or "on" "the first ballot"?
 * Second
 * "mismanagement fraud" This caused me to blink a bit as the phrase is new to me. How does this differ from ordinary fraud in business?  For fraud to take place, someone's usually screwed up the supervision ...
 * Sorry, I missed out the intervening word: "mismanagement and fraud". Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Coalition
 * The number of seats won by the Liberal Party in the February 1974 election should be stated as well as those by larger parties.
 * The number of Liberal seats is stated, just before the text to which you are referring, at the end of the previous section. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Relationship
 * "by then destitute in London," perhaps "by then in London and destitute"
 * "his supposed ill-treatment" perhaps "his tale of ill-treatment"
 * "presented no threat" this possibly could be deemed by some a bit POV. Possibly another term of your choice that implies quiescence?
 * "and the large number of its recent supporters" "its" could probably be deleted
 * Best left, I think, on rereading. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Interlude
 * "Thorpe pressed for the involvement of representatives from the Patriotic Front in negotiations for a peaceful settlement to the long-running Rhodesian Bush War" As you do not link the front, you might want to give more of a hint of who these people are/were to save the reader from having to dive into a bush war to find out.
 * "sold his story the London Evening News." a "to" missing
 * " to the annyance"
 * Under the circumstances, you should mention how the Liberals did in the 1979 election, and if their performance was attributed to Thorpe and his activities, that is worth stating.
 * Added a sentence to cover this. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Trial
 * "began on 8 May," likely should add the year.
 * "the lawyer's first high-profile national case" I'm inclined to think "national" could be safely removed. There may be high-profile purely local cases.
 * "proscution's evidence from the committal hearings" prosecution. Presumably they heard other evidence as well, unless it "came to far more than the witnesses ever had said"?
 * Under the British system prior to 2012, the purpose of a committal hearing was to determine whether the prosecution's evidence was sufficient to warrant a trial, and only the prosecution's case was heard. I have more or less said this in the Commital section – will add a footnote if you think such is justified. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Final years
 * "dying on 4 December 2014" the year probably need not be repeated, especially as you cue in the reader with "nine months".
 * Appraisal
 * " fall from grace" since the quote following uses the word "fall", possibly avoid that word here.
 * "in the 1970, maintained that in the repressive climate of the 1960s and 1970s" typo. Additionally, the 1960s and 1970s  could probably be replaced by "repressive climate of the time".
 * Do any of the sources speak to the effect that the Thorpe affair had on the fortunes of the Liberal Party? Worth including, I would think, if so.
 * Only insofar as the 1979 election is concerned, and I have added info to cover this. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Notes
 * I am getting Harv errors via script for the footnotes dealing with Dorey 2009, Freeman and Penrose 1997, Stratton 2008, Moore 2014, Landale 2014, Chippendale and Leigh 1979, Murray 2015, Clegg 2013, Partington (ed.) 1996.
 * I think these are all cleared now. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Quite good. Possibly a bit protective but it may be necessary to stop very real positives and personal achievements from being squashed by the elephant in the room.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I have striven to find the right balance. This is difficult, since the foreknowledge of the circumstances that ended his career   is bound to overshadow every book or article written about Thorpe. If you feel that the balance in this article is wrong, perhaps you can indicate where you think that remedial work is needed. In any event, thank you for your careful review. I have generally adopted your suggestions, or otherwise I have commented above. Brianboulton (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
A few very minor tweaks made - mostly spelling or pages - here (although one of those edits belongs to BB).

Schooling
 * "...January 1938 Jeremy went..." (and the three following Jeremys): I think we can drop into "Thorpe" here, and the subsequent ones in the para
 * "death in 1944 of John Henry Thorpe": I think we can go with "John Henry" here, as we have elsewhere in this preceding text.
 * I've done as you suggest with "John Henry", but I'm rather reluctant to start "Thorpeing" Jeremy when he's still only 10. I reworded to get rid of one of the Jeremys, though. Brianboulton (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Oxford
 * "admission to Trinity College on 8 October": We go from first use Trinity College to Trinity and back to Trinity College: I think we can drop the College after first use (and possibly drop the middle Trinity all together?)

Parliamentary candidate
 * "North Devon, a seat once been held by the Liberals": an extra word needed in here somewhere (or maybe one less would also work)

First phase
 * "When Grimond finally resigned": Do we need the "finally"? It makes it seem a long, drawn-out affair, which isn't suggested by the text.
 * As explained to Wehwalt, above, Grimond waited for almost 10 month after stating his intention, before actually resigning. So t was a somewhat drawn-out business. But I have deleted "finally", anyway. Brianboulton (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Done to the end of the First phase: I'll return shortly for this interesting read. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Continuing – and only one minor point sticks out for me:

Declining fortunes
 * "according to Holmes, "[Jeremy felt] he would never…": do we need the square brackets at the beginning of the quote (and using the Christian name too?) Perhaps "according to Holmes, Thorpe felt "he would never…"?

Excellent read, and a nice reminder of the politician and man behind the scandal. Please drop me a note when you go to FAC. – SchroCat (talk) 14:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for these few points, dealt with as you suggest except as noted. It won't be at FAC just yet – got to wait for Tim's return – but I'll let you know when it's ready. Brianboulton (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Cliftonian thoughts
Box, lead


 * "elected as party leader" elected party leader, perhaps? (not sure we need "as" here)
 * "Thorpe capitalised on the growing unpopularity of the Conservative and Labour parties, to lead the Liberals through a period of notable electoral success" Not sure you need the comma after "parties" here
 * "He was offered a cabinet post by the Conservative prime minister, Edward Heath, if he would bring the Liberals into a coalition, but his price for such a deal, electoral reform, was rejected by Heath, who resigned in favour of a minority Labour government." This sentence has a lot of commas in it. I would lose the commas either side of Heath.
 * Revised, slightly differently. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "This stance left many questions unanswered, so that despite his acquittal, Thorpe lost the confidence of the public and could not return to public life." I'd replace "so that" with an emdash: "This stance left many questions unanswered—despite his acquittal, Thorpe lost the confidence of the public ..."
 * Revised, slightly differently. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "Thorpe lost the confidence of the public and could not return to public life." repetition of the word "public"
 * We say in the box that he was born in Surrey, but in the body we say he was born in South Kensington. Kensington is historically in Middlesex, no?
 * That's a fault in the box, which I have now corrected. I did not compile the box, which obviously needs looking at more closely

Family background and early childhood


 * Consider italicising "née" as a Latin term (I don't feel strongly about this as it is a very common term, but I know some do)
 * I don't normally italicise it. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Why was his maternal grandfather known as "Empire Jack"? A very brief explanation (half a sentence) would be nice here.
 * "often accompanied by his mother" would suggest a comma before this and remove the comma after "violinist".
 * We render "Parliament" with a capital letter here, but not elsewhere.
 * Among the closest of these friendships was that with the Lloyd George family—Ursula Thorpe was a close personal friend of the former Liberal prime minister's daughter, Megan, who became Jeremy's godmother. As a young child, Jeremy was deeply impressed by Lloyd George's magnetic personality; the former statesman became his hero and role model, and helped form his own ambitions for a political career in the Liberal Party." We have two concurrent sentences with very similar structures, with a pause in the middle (an emdash in one case and a semicolon in the other). I would recommend redrawing either one or the other for variety.
 * I have reconstructed the latter sentence more simply. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Education


 * "He proved to be an indifferent scholar" perhaps "He proved an indifferent scholar"?
 * Do we know what attracted him to Margaret as opposed to her sister Elizabeth? (Perhaps he considered the latter an unrealistic match)
 * Well, Mags was a year younger than him, and Lizzie three years older, so I suppose he considered her out of range. Of course, he was bullshitting anyway, but just imagine if he had set his cap at Elizabeth, and won her over. Ye gods!


 * " In September he began his eighteen months' National Service, but within six weeks was discharged on medical grounds." In the Army, Navy or Air Force? And on what medical grounds was he discharged? It seems to me that it would take something rather major to get discharged completely rather than just posted somewhere not so physically demanding. Was he pleased to be discharged? (this last point just out of personal interest)
 * I've added a brief explanation of the circumstances of his military discharge, and a footnote covering the slightly dodgy background to the matter. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * A-ha. I suspected as much. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  22:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "a thriving club with over 800 members" how big were the competing clubs at Oxford at the time? Conservative, Labour, Communistical etc?
 * No number details of the other political clubs are available, I'm afraid. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

More later —  Cliftonian   (talk)  05:45, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. If I have not commented I have adopted your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I'm feeling a bit burned out tonight, so I don't know if I will get to continuing this; just a heads-up. Not particularly surprised to learn of the manner of Mr Thorpe's military discharge. "Bomber" Thorpe indeed. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  22:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Please don't feel obligated to provide more – I am grateful for your suggestions thus far. The article will remain on peer review for a couple more weeks, in the hopes of some input from the  returning Riley, so please chip in if you feel like it. And there's always FAC... Brianboulton (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll try to come back at some point over the next week or so. I'm sorry for the delay Brian. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  17:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Cassiano comments
Interlude
 * "Thorpe's relatively peaceful interlude ended in October 1977 when Newton, released from prison, sold his story to the London Evening News. Newton's claim that he had been paid "by a leading Liberal" to kill Scott caused a sensation, and led to a prolonged police investigations." Singular/plural confusion at the end of this sentence.

Trial and acquittal
 * "After the closing speeches, on 18 June the judge began his summing-up." -- Either a misplaced comma, or the sentence could do with some attention.

Later life
 * "After his acquittal Thorpe announced his intention of attending that year's Liberal assembly and the forthcoming Liberal International Congress in Canada." -- After his acquittal Thorpe announced his intention to attend that year's Liberal assembly and the forthcoming Liberal International Congress in Canada."  Cassianto Talk   21:18, 11 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for these thoughts. I have dealt with them by a bit of subtle rephrasing. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Tim
Finally back in action after absence and RL distractions. Shall read the article now and comment soonest. Please keep the review open for a day or two!  Tim riley  talk    12:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I look forward to your wisdom – the review will not be closed before next week. Brianboulton (talk) 18:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Info-box
 * Alma mater = Eton and Trinity, Oxford" – How can a sustaining mother be both Eton and Trinity? Almae matres, surely?
 * Infobox blues...no plural heading available in the template (and no one would understand it anyway). I've knocked out Eton. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Family background and early childhood
 * I'm pretty sure that the MoS forbids images on the left immediately under a header, as that of LG is here.
 * That certainly used to be the case, but as far as I know it was dropped as a guideline way back. Certainly I've ignored it for the past five years and it's not been raised at FAC during that time. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Why give d.o.b. again in the text?
 * I've always done this, in all my biographical articles. The principle is that significant information in the lead needs to be restated in the article. By any reckoning it does no harm. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "née" – don't we usually italicise?
 * Some do, some don't – to me it's one of those terms which has become common enough to surmount its foreign origins. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "brought significant wealth" – what did it signify? A pity to waste "significant" as a mere synonym of "considerable".
 * "a close personal friend" – as opposed to a close impersonal one?
 * Education
 * "a weekly boarder" – meaning he boarded Mon-Thurs and came home at weekends? Perhaps clarify.
 * Dropped the boarding bit – not worth the 20 or so extra words of description that would otherwie be necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "Thorpe has personally revealed" – the tense seems odd
 * I think it's the "personally" rather than the tense that's the problem; "Thorpe has revealed little about his Eton years" sems OK to me. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Oxford
 * "(OULC), which despite the doldrums affecting the Liberal Party nationally, was" – if you close the subordinate clause with a comma after "nationally" oughtn't you open it with one after "which"?
 * Parliamentary candidate
 * "longstanding" – the OED hyphenates this adjective
 * Barrister-at-law and television journalist
 * "London's Inner Temple" – I always think "London's this-or-that" has a tabloidese ring" – "London's Royal Opera House", "London's Piccadilly Circus" etc. Nothing actually wrong with it, but it strikes a slightly false note.
 * "This sexual preference, concealed from the wider public, was known and tolerated in North Devon" – by whom in North Devon? The constituency association? A select few? More?
 * Bloch says no more than that his preferences were "fairly common knowledge in North Devon, where they tended to be regarded as just another of his eccentricities", so I can't really expand. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Member of Parliament
 * "Macmillan sacked half his cabinet" – not half: only (only!) a third. Seven out of 21 to be precise.
 * First phase, 1967–70
 * "Timothy Beaumont, chair of the party's organising committee" – There is not the smallest possibility that he was "chair" rather than "chairman" in 1967. See The Times, 7 July 1966, p. 11.
 * Trial and acquittal
 * "Sir Joseph Cantley" – for other knights you have piped the Sir" – rightly I think.
 * "For his defence Thorpe engaged George Carman for was the lawyer's first high-profile case" – the syntax has got into a tangle here.
 * "race relations advisor to the Greater London Council" – even the GLC didn't stoop to the American spelling in 1981: the title of the post was Principal Race Relations Adviser: See "Recruitment Opportunities", The Times, 11 August 1981, p. 17
 * Blimey! I can't argue with that. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

That's all from me. This will be a cert for FA.  Tim riley  talk    09:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Tim, for these suggestions which I have adopted unless otherwise stated. I intend to spend time this weekend in some final polishing before a possible FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)