Wikipedia:Peer review/Joel Selwood/archive2

===Joel Selwood===
 * Previous peer review
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for May 2008.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for May 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I would like some outside comments on the progress of this article's editting, in the hope that it eventually becomes a featured article.

Thanks, Boomtish (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC) :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Joel Selwood/archive2.

Looks good though! Somno (talk) 04:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have made a couple of small changes directly in the article, but here are some suggestions:
 * Quite a bit of the text is too informal, e.g. "picked up football at a young age and worked his way up", "days right through to the under 15s", "surgically cleaned-up knee saw him pushed down prospective draft lists", "drew rave reviews", "cemented his spot within the team coming off the bench", "claimed that the far-flung nature of the family". Prose quality is a large component of FA.
 * Done - addressed those specific examples within the article. Thanks for pointing/raising the concerns. Boomtish (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Unlike his brothers, Joel displayed gifts as an athlete from an early age", yet earlier the article said "elder twins Adam and Troy were both identified as talented footballers right from their junior days"?
 * The distinction is between being a natural athlete and being a gifted footballer I would have thought. Unlike his brothers, Joel was a naturally gifted athlete - evidenced by his running ability in athletics. The fact that his brothers were gifted footballers is a different point. Boomtish (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "proceeded to boot three goals from a half forward flank" might make sense to an Aussie footy supporter, but does it make sense to any reader of the encyclopedia? Internal linking could help.
 * Done - editted to reflect position on the ground, and provided internal linking Boomtish (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Citation formats need to be standardised.
 * Done. Boomtish (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Should be part of the Biography Wikiproject?
 * Done. Added to the WPP:BIO. Boomtish (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from User:Mattinbgn

A good start and reasonably comprehensive; the prose needs considerable work.


 * "Australia" or "Australian" appear four times in the opening sentence. I would reword along the lines of Joel Anthony Selwood (born 26 May 1988) is an Australian Rules footballer for the Geelong Football Club in the Australian Football League (AFL)." Professional is implied by stating that he plays in the AFL.  Birthplace can be listed elsewhere (and probably does need inclusion in the lead) and nationality for an Australian rules footballer is only notable if the subject is not Australian.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The Geelong Football Club is the name of the club (and the article). "Geelong Cats" is informal and colloquial and unless there is some sort of WP:AFL protocol that insists on using this terminology, the nickname should not be used in the article, other than in quotes.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "After starting out as an athlete ..." Athlete is a general purpose term for a sportsman in some versions of English. Perhaps, "Selwood started playing football in after an earlier interest in Athletics."
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "...as a bottom-aged player" What is this?
 * Essentially playing as a 16 or 17 year old in the competition (which is more or less designed for 18 year olds). Ideally would internally link it to an already existing article to help clear any confusion, but can't find anything at this point time. Hesitant to scrap it altogether, as it is a fairly significant point in discussing Selwood - particularly his achievements. May look at incorporating the term into a pre-existing article; either AFL Draft or TAC Cup? Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought so. Perhaps a mention in a footnote along the lines of the explanation given above would be useful. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Linked to the TAC Cup article, which outlines age eligibility of the competition. Boomtish (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Off the field, he has acted as an ambassador for the SEDA organisation" Spell out Seeing Eye Dogs Australia at its first mention
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "his elder twin brothers" I know what you mean but it is potentially confusing&mdash;i.e. elder twin? Does twin need a mention here at all?
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "... Selwood faced physical hurdles from a young age" Should use "Joel" rather than "Selwood" when referring to Joel in this paragraph. There are too many Selwoods mentioned to be sure who you are talking about!
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Nonetheless, the additional hurdle toward joining his brothers in sports only built Selwood's determination to achieve greater things." Overwordy and a little bit PEACOCKY; take a look at User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: redundancy exercises for advice.
 * Scrapped the sentence altogether until I can think of better wording. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Unlike his brothers, Joel displayed gifts as ..." Once you have finished discussing his family, you should return to using his surname rather than his first name.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Growing up alongside his elder brothers, Joel found familiarity in playing alongside older, bigger children". Try "Growing up with elder brothers, Selwood was familiar with playing with older, bigger teammates and opponents"
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "... and proceeded to boot three goals" "Boot" is a little informal and newspaperish
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Selwood continued through the junior Bendigo ranks with the Sandhurst Football Club to the elite under 18s TAC Cup competition level, where he made his debut for the Bendigo Pioneers as a 17 year old in 2005" Try "Selwood played his junior football with Sandhurst Football Club and, aged 17, he was chosen to play with with the Bendigo Pioneers in the elite TAC Cup."
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Selwood established himself as one of the brightest young prospects in the country ..." A little bit peacocky, use a quote or merely state what he had done.
 * The linked reference is not strong enough support? Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably but we need to be careful that Wikipedia is not seen as making potentially POV claims (and opinion such as "one of the brightest young prospects in the country" is a POV statement as opposed to a hard fact (goals, games, draft selection etc.). I always try and attribute POV claims such as this to a person if possible, otherwise FAC reviewers will ask the question "Who thinks so?". Little POV inferences like this will be seized upon at FAC and it is better to be over-cautious with these claims. Perhaps '... Selwood was rated by AFL Talent Manager Tony Sheehan as "the best under-17 player in Australia for all the reasons of the way he won the football, the way he set the play up, and his decision-making was outstanding, as was his leadership"'.  That could be incorporated into the text or added to footnote reference. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I've incorporated the quote by Sheehan into the sentence. Boomtish (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "...as a bottom-aged player" Bottom-aged again. I am familiar with Australian rules football but I have never heard this term before.  Needs an explanation (or at least a link).
 * See earlier explanation. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "In addition, he was named to the TAC Cup Team of the Year" - should be "named in"
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "as one of the top rated prospects in his draft class" Draft class? I am not sure what this means. Is it an Americanism?
 * Nope, the term was infact used in an football article I read today. Refers to the draft year, essentially - e.g. the class of 2005. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, can we link or define the term for the non-AFL fan. FAC reviewers will want the articles accessible to all readers. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed the term to age-group to suit non-AFL fans. Although looking at similar articles (see 2003 NBA Draft, which uses an equivalent term), there seems to be no problem with the use of 'class' when referring to a certain group of athletes. Boomtish (talk)
 * "when he was awarded the Mike Fitzpatrick Scholarship as well as the AFL Life Members Education Fund Award" need a cite for this
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "However, a knee injury pertained only six rounds into ..." Pertain means "to belong, to relate or to refer, none of which apply here
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "prematurely ending his year" Try "finished his season"; his year finished on 31 Decemeber.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

More to follow. -- Mattinbgn\talk 07:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Selwood was drafted from Bendigo by the Geelong Football Club with the seventh overall pick in the 2006 AFL Draft" - a little clumsy Try "Geelong Football Club drafted Selwood with their first selection in the 2006 AFL draft, the seventh pick overall."
 * Not sure I agree with the provided wording. I've editted it nonetheless though. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Your revision looks OK to me. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Although many talent evaluators viewed him as ..." Talent evaluators? Not sure that this a term in actual use.
 * Changed to recruiting scouts. Boomtish (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "surgically cleaned-up knee" colloquial and needs writing in a more formal register
 * Changed to operated knee. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Selwood's seamless transition to the rigours of AFL football drew rave reviews throughout the footballing community" Peacocky again, best to quote a "review" if possible and name the reviewer
 * Statement is already backed up by references and further quotes/examples? Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * See my example and explanation above. Take a look at Featured article candidates/Clem Hill if you want to see some examples of what FAC reviewers will see as POV and Peacock terms. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, attributed a quote by Leigh Matthews regarding the 'seamless transition' note, to go along with the quote by Mark Thompson.Boomtish (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "... an ability to impact games" Impact as a verb seems awkward to me.
 * Changed to influence. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "... of 25 disposals and nine tackles" While WP:MOSNUM says that numbers under ten should be written as words, where you have a mixture in the one sentence you should use numbers for both.
 * I believe the previous peer reviewer corrected that. I originally had it as you suggested. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you will get a range of opinions on that issue :-(, and I have a real issue will MOSNUM and sport articles. I'll stand by my reading of "Within a context or a list, style should be consistent (either 5 cats and 32 dogs or five cats and thirty-two dogs, not five cats and 32 dogs)" but leave a final decision up to you. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "... from all bar one of the judges" "bar" in this sense seems jarring to me; I would use "but" or reword to avoid the phrasing entirely
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "to become only the fourth player in history to complete" - "in history" is redundant, the other occasions must have been in the past.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * link McClelland Trophy
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sheehan quote - the ellipses needs spaces on each side.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "2nd Qualifying Final " - 2nd or Second? I'm not sure what the convention is at WP:AFL
 * I believe it is 2nd, if we refer to the AFL finals system article. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Happy with that -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "22 disposals, five marks, five clearances, six inside 50s, five tackles, and five goal assists" MOSNUM issues and some term definitions (either in the footnotes or a link) is needed for "marks", "clearances", "inside 50s" and "goal assists" for the benefit of non-AFL fans.
 * Again, number issue was previously editted by last peer review. Additional internal links provided for marks, clearances, inside 50s, and goal assists. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * See above

More to follow. -- Mattinbgn\talk 09:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Throughout numbers linked to terms such as "22 disposals" should have non-breaking spaces. See Manual of Style for assistance.
 * Fixed accordingly throughout the article. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Having finished ranked first among all first-year players in several major statistical categories;[26] including total possessions (405), disposals per game (19.3), total kicks (216), total handpasses (189), total marks (109), tackles per game (4.5), and total tackles (94)—the most by any first-year player in AFL history[32]—Selwood added to his growing list of first-year honours at season's end with the Geelong Best First Year Player Award, a top 20 placing in the Club Champion award,[33] and recognition among several media end-of-year sporting awards." - Much too long. Break up into at least two, or possibly three sentences.
 * Fixed accordingly. Broken into two sentences. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "2008: Sophomore season" - Not convinced about this heading, I don't believe the term is commonly used in Australia
 * Editted to simply 2008 for now. Perhaps better to address this issue at the conclusion of the 2008 season? Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "During the off-season, Selwood underwent minor surgery for compartment syndrome on his calf" - Try "To alleviate his compartment syndrome, Selwood had minor surgery on his calf during the off-season."
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "gain additional ground time" and "After consulting with the coaching staff during the off-season, Selwood heralded a move down back as a rotating defender when not in his customary midfield position" - colloquial terms that are unfamiliar to non-AFL fans
 * Changed ground time to playing time, although I think ground time is still very basic (see references in other sports such as basketball or netball referring to court time etc). Added internal linking for terms such as defender and midfield position. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good. -- Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "only offer deals containing significantly less monetary terms attached to that of the open market" - redundancy: "monetary terms" --> "money" Try "... offer contracts paying significantly less than available elsewhere"
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "However, on 8 May 2008, it was reported" - overly specific date.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "As of the Round 8 win over Richmond ..." - This sentence does not read well
 * Scrapped. Now simply reads as "Selwood currently holds the third-longest all-time winning streak by an individual player in VFL/AFL history, having won his past 25 games." Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "in-and-under" - jargon, needs defining
 * Provided appropriate links. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Footballing legend Leigh Matthews" - reads like POV, try "four-time premiership coach Leigh Matthews" or "AFL Hall of Fame Legend Leigh Matthews"
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "his top five finishing at the club" - clumsy and needs rewording
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "counter-argue" Is this a word?
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 07:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The statistics and honours sections are well done, but likely to become overwhelming in a few years. Not a problem at the moment though. :-)


 * "He has two older twin brothers, Adam Selwood and Troy Selwood, as well as a younger sibling, Scott Selwood, who also play in the AFL for West Coast, Brisbane, and West Coast respectively." - Try "He has three brothers, all listed with AFL clubs; two older brothers, the twins Adam (playing with West Coast) and Troy (Brisbane) and a younger brother, Scott (West Coast)."
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "have claimed that the spreaded nature of the family around Australia" - clumsy; the use of "spreaded" here does not seem correct
 * Changed to wide-spread. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "... he is noted for being a regular speaker at club functions" - redundancies, try removing "noted for being" and note how none of the meaning is lost.
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Selwood's early success on the field has also led to several endorsement and promotional deals with companies such as Asics and Smith's, including appearances alongside rugby league star Greg Inglis and former Collingwood legend Peter Daicos in several television advertisements respectively" - unclear meaning. Try "Following his early success, Selwood has several endorsement and promotional deals with companies including Asics and Smith's. These have seen Selwood participate in promotional appearances with rugby league player Greg Inglis and television advertisements with Peter Daicos."
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Category:People from Victoria is redundant when you have used Category:People from Bendigo
 * Fixed accordingly. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You should add Persondata to the article. This is complementary to the infobox content.
 * Done. Boomtish (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You have done a good job in gathering sources and materials for this article and it is coming together reasonably well. The prose needs some attention, ever after the points above have been addressed. If you plan to take this to WP:FAC, read User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a for some guidance on making your prose "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Let me know if you have any questions. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 10:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well done for addressing my concerns so quickly. Of course don't feel obligated to accept any point I have made if you disagree. I have one more piece of advice; think about asking at WP:FOOTY or WP:NFL for additional peer reviewers. A fresh look at an article by someone without any AFL knowledge would help identify jargon or other points that need clarification and improve the article immensely.  Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 11:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mattinbgn that the article could benefit from an outsider's review too - the football terms that make sense to us mightn't make sense to them. Congrats with what you've done with this article and Tom Hawkins, both are great. Somno (talk) 14:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip. I have requested additional peer reviews from members of WP:FOOTY and WP:NFL to help clear up any lingering issues. Boomtish (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been asked (via a post on my talk page) to take a look at it. Before I get into particular critiques, I'd like to say that the article on whole seems comprehensive to someone unfamiliar with the subject. The authors appear to have given adequate coverage to early-life aspects of the individual as well as his personal life. Although most of the focus is on his sporting career, that's to be expected given that's the area from which his notability stems. I do have some quibbles, however.
 * There's a number of weasel words (WP:WEASEL), such as "spotless," "dream," and "seamless." I've been dinged on this several times in my articles, so I notice it more in others'. I'd suggest trying to find a citation that uses those exact adjectives or adverbs or, barring that, removing them altogether.
 * Addressed - removed them altogether from the article. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 17-year-old is hypenated in American English; not sure if it is in Australian.
 * I originally had it hypenated, but an early peer review saw it removed. I've since checked regarding its use in Australia, and it appears that hypenation is also required. I've added them acordingly. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a couple of grammar issues in the Early Life section, though I'm not sure if they stem from my unfamiliarity with Australian English or not.
 * Use of passive voice in the first sentence of the Early Life section
 * Noted and addressed. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Overextended sentences. There's no reason to have emdashes and a semicolon in the same sentence; split it up.
 * Addressed - split into two sentences. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Redundancy. In the final sentence of the Early Life section, the author(s) use the word "season" twice. Generally, if there's a way to express something in consecutive sentences without using the same word, try to do so.
 * Addressed - changed first "season" to "competition", in reference to the TAC Cup Competition in which he played in. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm also a bit concerned by the fact that some things seem to be cited in the lede while others aren't. I can understand that if they're cited later in the article (which they appear to be), but I'd recommend picking whether you want to cite everything or nothing in the lead. Hybrids don't usually work well.
 * Addressed. Citings in the lead removed, and now only used for additional citings throughout the main article body. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

These are things that jumped out at me while reading it. As someone unfamiliar with AFL, I can't really judge the content, just the style. Things are understandable to me (very good job on the Wikilinks), but I'd suggest an overall copyedit for grammar and smoothness before submitting it to FAC. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tip, will look at getting a copy editor to have a look at the article. Boomtish (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Request has been forwarded to the WP:LOCE for general clean-up of prose. Boomtish (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)