Wikipedia:Peer review/John Le Mesurier/archive1

John Le Mesurier
This peer review discussion has been closed. With appearances in over 100 films, plus an extensive stage and television repertoire, "Le Mez" was a tireless character actor who appeared in some of the most well-known films of the twentieth century, but is perhaps best known for his portrayal of Arthur Wilson in Dad's Army. This article has had a fairly fundamental re-vamp recently; we are hoping to be able to nominate it for FA status in the near future, but feel that a closer scrutiny by a wider audience could be hugely beneficial and all comments are welcome.

Thanks, SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 22:24, 3 November 2012 (UTC),    Cassianto Talk   21:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC) and ♦  Dr. ☠ Blofeld  13:20, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

As I reviewed Sellers, and this looks like similar stuff (from the same sturdy team), I'll do this, but it will be a couple more days before I begin. On the face of it the article looks good; not overlong, and well presented. One subsection ends with an uncited sentence, and you may want to fix this. Brianboulton (talk) 01:06, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * By Jove that is good news. I think I caught that ref. Thanks Brian. --   Cassianto Talk   01:16, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments (first batch)
 * Lead


 * I'm not sure that, at present, the lead is a proper summary of the whole article. The third paragraph, for example, is little more than a list of films he appeared in. Also, I would expect to find in the lead some indication of the kind of actor he basically was, e.g. comic, dramatic, classical - and some indication of a career trajectory, which is quite missing at the moment.
 * Slightly belated, but now addressed! - SchroCat (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The "Fay Compton Studio of Dramatic Art" is the name of an organisation. You should not wikilink a part of this name; all of it or not at all (or a redlink if you must, though I wouldn't)
 * Full title linked back to Compton. In favour of this as opposed to not at all as I thought it important to show the distinguished background to JLM's theatrical schooling. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "From there he took a position in repertory theatre and made his stage debut in September 1934 at the Palladium Theatre in Edinburgh in the J. B. Priestley play Dangerous Corner and later accepted an offer to work with Alec Guinness in a John Gielgud production of William Shakespeare's Hamlet". Far too much for one sentence; please divide it. And "William Shakespeare" can safely be called "Shakespeare".
 * Split. Should Shakespeare still be linked?  I would consider it to be borderline OVERLINK but I have left it linked to his surname.  --   Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree - it's too much, especially for the lead, so I've dropped the link. Feel free to revert is either of you disagree! - SchroCat (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Which arm of the forces did he serve in "as a captain"? Also, it's not a good idea summarise his war service and jump to his 1948 film debut in the same sentence
 * Royal Tank Regiment now added and the sentence split. (Although this may all change once the lead is re-worked, following your opening comment) - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Early life


 * Add a brief description for Turing; don't force use of the link.
 * I know him for his computer invention rather than maths so have gone with this. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Could we have brief details of why he disliked both his schools intensely?
 * Done—and in his own words too for Sherborne. - SchroCat (talk)


 * "follow in his father's footsteps" is a bit of a cliché, and not really encyclopedic language. In fact, this whole sentence needs a rethink, as it has two "ands" stringing it out. Suggest reduce to: "After leaving school he commenced work as a clerk at Greene & Greene, a firm of solicitors in Bury St Edmunds, while in his spare time he took up amateur theatricals".
 * reworded. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "he discussed his decision with his parents, saying that, "the law was about to lose an unpromising recruit". Hmm, I rather doubt these were the words he used at the time.
 * Tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Same point as raised in the lead - linking part of an organisation's name (Fay Compton Studio of Dramatic Art)
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "along with Alec Guinness" suggests that they actually joined together, as a pair, which probably wasn't the case. Perhaps: "...where a fellow-student was Alec Guinness, with whom he became close friends".
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   07:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "provided their annual public review..." What is meant by "provided", which seems an odd choice of verb. And do you mean "revue" rather than "review"?
 * Quite right: the school now staged a revue. - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "...Le Mesurier decided to leave and take a position in repertory theatre with the Edinburgh-based Millicent Ward Repertory Players, earning £3.10s (£3.50) a week". Verbose, and grammatically adrift. Suggest: "Le Mesurier decided to leave, and joined the Edinburgh-based Millicent Ward Repertory Players at a salary of £3.10s (£3.50) a week".
 * Changed. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * 1934-36


 * "At this juncture..." is imprecise. When?
 * Done - "Until 1937" now added. - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Per lead, Shakespeare can be just "Shakespeare"
 * As per before, a linked variant has been left for his surname. OVERLINK? --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Second and third paragraphs: first mention of the subject should be by name, not pronoun
 * Done and done. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Overdetailing - we don't need to know each and every one of his rep performances. Thus the second paragraph could be usefully reduced. The same fault recurs later in the section
 * Streamlined. --  Cassianto Talk   17:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I found it interesting that he appeared on TV so early in the BBC's transmissions, and it might be worth mentioning that he was one of television's pioneer actors.
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   18:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "putting on a performance" generally applies to theatre managers rather than actors. Did he do more than act in this play? Incidentally, the word "both" appears three times in this elongated sentence, which could perhaps be reworded or split.
 * No longer putting on, just performing. I've reduced to two boths - can you let me know if this still reads OK, or whether you still think a split would be preferred? - SchroCat (talk) 09:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "His last performance on stage in Scotland..." Is there any significance in this being his last performance in Scotland? If so, say why, and clarify whether you mean last-ever, or last in this phase of his career.
 * None at all! Now tweaked to show it was his last performance with the Howard and Wyndham Players. - SchroCat (talk) 10:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It was actually the Guardian "reviewer", rather than its "review", that considered Le M's performance "faultless"
 * Changed. --  Cassianto Talk   07:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The words "During the war..." are redundant
 * Deleted. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * 1946-59


 * Again, there is too much emphasis on listing of roles. A more general survey of his career would be preferable. For example, could we know something about his thoughts and ambitions? Was he happy with the way things were going?  At this point in the article he is still a rather lifeless character, which I'm sure was not the case in reality.
 * A wife suddenly appears, without explanation. No doubt detail are provided later, but in this chronological narrative of his career we should be told, briefly, when the marriage occurred.
 * Done (April 1940, so it appears briefly in the previous section) - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "Jacques joined the cast of the show in 1956..." Clarify that you mean Hancock's show.
 * Done - SchroCat (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Third paragraph beginning: "In 1952 he again worked..." → "In 1952 Le Mesurier again worked..."
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "... worked with Saunders and Marshall in Blind Man's Bluff and also had an uncredited role as a Scotland Yard officer in Mother Riley Meets the Vampire" - it's not clear whether these are TV, film or stage roles.
 * Film. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "whilst", although an accepted English word, is slightly old-fashioned and generally depracated at WP:FAC. I'd advise making it "while" - although the whole sentence, which has an awkward "but" in it, could do with rewriting: "When Hancock left Educating Archie in 1954 to work on his own radio show, Hancock's Half Hour, he kept up his friendship with Le Mesurier, and Jacques joined the cast for the fourth series of the show, in 1956."
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Explain what you mean by "B-films"; I think you previously referred to "second features".
 * Done (altered "B-film" to "second feature", which is the more British term too, I think) - SchroCat (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I have also made a number of minor copyedits during my reading through, apart from points noted in the review. More review to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Second instalment:
 * 1960–68


 * The problem identified in early sections comtinues: long lists of every one of Le M's performances, with co-stars dutifully noted. Do we need this roll-call? Why not create a "List of rôles performed by John Le Mesurier"? When we get some comment on his performances, e.g. comments by Lambert and Powell, it's interesting, but otherwise reading becomes something of a chore. I think that, as a matter of priority, the co-authors ought to consider reducing the merely listed items to a few examples, and focus on those rôles where critical comments give us more of an ideas as to the kind of actor Le M was.
 * It would also be useful to know whether all these parts were much-of-a-sameness, or whether there was any variety. Did he only play comedy roles, or was there some straight acting?
 * Slightly belated, but now addressed! - SchroCat (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Having mentioned Powell's comments, I can't make sense of this one: "... I find myself setting Mr Le Mesurier beside one of the nest among the American straight-face comedian, John McGiver". Can you check this is what Powell said, and clarify what he meant if he did?
 * I've tweaked the sentence and managed to write it properly this time—the two typos did not help comprehension! - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * 1968–77


 * "issues commands" → "issued commands" (probable typo in quotation)
 * Another of my typo blunders, I'm afraid: now remedied. - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "...particularly the fortnight the cast would spend in Thetford filming the outside scenes" - I assume this was some kind of regular fortnight, not just a one-off; how frequently did it recur?
 * Annually, which is now reflected in the article. - SchroCat (talk) 04:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "A play was written, which toured around the UK between the summer of 1975 and August 1976". Awkward passive voice at the beginning; also, did Le M and the rest of the regular cast appear in the play?
 * Tweaked the passivity and Le Mez's appearance. - SchroCat (talk) 04:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify what is meant by "a cast recording" in the following: "...as well as an album, a cast recording of Dad's Army; both were released on the Warner label in 1975."
 * I can, and have! - SchroCat (talk) 04:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "likened to a "mild demeanour" - by whom?
 * An academic, whose name is now added. - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "He gave a memorable performance in Dennis Potter's 1971 play..." Apart from the "He" at the beginning of the paragraph, this is POV unless attributed. Also, clarify that this was a TV play, not a stage play. There are other instances where the performance medium is unclear, as in "In 1972 Le Mesurier made a cameo appearance in Val Guest's sex comedy Au Pair Girls and he starred alongside Warren Mitchell, Dandy Nichols, Paul Angelis and Adrienne Posta Bob Kellett's The Alf Garnett Saga." This problem is recurrent throughout the article.
 * I've addressed the Potter information (both POV and "He"), but I need to work on the rest as part of a wider re-working that will be needed from your comments (too many roles, not enough clarity of types of work etc) - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * 1977–83


 * "The film was poorly received by critics and the public at the time." Does "at the time" imply that they changed their minds later?
 * Removed the sentence: it's slightly irrelevant here. - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Clarify whether Angelini's comment referred specifically to the portrayal of Marley, or more generally?
 * Tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "Stepson" is not a hyphenated word, but "guest-starred" does need one.
 * Both done - SchroCat (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The chronology in the section is a bit confusing. However, it seems that Le M was inactive for the last 18 months or so of his life. Any reason for this?
 * Slightly belated, but now addressed! - SchroCat (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Final part of review to follow Brianboulton (talk) 23:45, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

'Final thoughts
 * Personal life


 * The Times notice belongs in the previous section
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe a little too much detail on Melville's drinking? She was not an important factor in his career. I'd trim to a couple of sentences and then move on to Jacques.
 * Trimmed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "The two" undobtedly refers to Le M and Jacques, but as written could be construed as Le M and Hibbert
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Specific birth dates for two non-notable sons are superfluous
 * Exact dates deleted. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Give the year of the holiday collapse
 * '63 now added - SchroCat (talk) 10:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "In 1964 Le Mesurier eventually moved out of his marital house and, on the day he moved in..." Moved in where?
 * Unimportant, so sentence now re-worked. - SchroCat (talk) 10:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "In his private life, Le Mesurier was a heavy drinker and was often seen with a drink in his hand but never noticeably drunk." I'd edit this down a bit: "Le Mesurier was a heavy drinker, often seen with a drink in his hand but never noticeably drunk."
 * Reworded. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "while undergoing his period of abstinence" - from alcohol?
 * Indeed. Changed. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the words "from a stomach haemorrhage" are superfluous; the haemorrhage has already been mentioned.
 * Deleted. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The grave image should be aligned with the text dealing with his death.
 * Moved. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * "gave an address" → "gave the eulogy"
 * Eulogy given. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Other comment

I had not noticed the brief "filmography" section at the end of the article. This could usefully be expanded by reducing the listings in the prose which, as I have indicated, is a bit of a problem at present.
 * I would be in favour of doing away with the table instead and keeping the film mentions in the text. The table is a bit repetitive IMO and serves no real purpose here as there is a sister article giving a full filmography just above it.  SchroCat any thoughts on this? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I put the table in because we had a request to put one in for Sellers at FAC. I'm happy for it to come out or to be filled with the additional detail stripped out of the text. - SchroCat (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

That's all I have. As I expected, this is a very detailed and thorough biography. Most of the issues I've raised are relatively minor; it's the predominance of prose lists that, I think, is the main item needing attention. I'll happily look again when you've done the fixes, but you'll need to ping me. Brianboulton (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Brian, thank you so much for your time and effort on this article, it really is much appreciated. I think we've covered the majority of the smaller tweaks already, with your larger points still needed to be addressed, which Cass and I will work on to sort out. Thanks again. - SchroCat (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)