Wikipedia:Peer review/Kanhopatra/archive1

Kanhopatra
This peer review discussion has been closed. The article passed GA recently in October. The GA reviewer User:Nemonoman not only gave the article a through review but also copyedited the text and improved the article in the course of the review. This article about a Hindu saint-poet, who was a courtesan by profession and a prostitute's daughter. Only 30 of her poems have survived and little is known about her history. We know her only through legends and few poems left by her. Though the Prose size (text only) is 10 kB (1737 words) "readable prose size", IMO it is comprehensive due to the above reasons. I want the reviewers to examine the text for FA criteria WP:FA?. It was difficult to get English references that narrate her tale in detail, so references from Marathi dailies and magazines are used.

Thanks a lot, Redtigerxyz  Talk 05:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Quick comment: I haven't read the complete article yet, but looking at the sources, I think objections with regards to FAC criterion 1c may be raised. In particular, the following points would need to be clarified:
 * Why is a newspaper article a authoritative enough source on the subject to be cited ~20 times. If you can argue that Madhavi Kunte is some sort of expert on the subject, then this should be ok.
 * If you notice the reference used for the legend, in places the reference is used with other references that tell the same legend ([1][10][11]) In these cases, [1] can be removed. Maharashtra Times is the Marathi newspaper owned The Times Group, who publishes the Times of India.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ditto for the Lokpraha (redlink!) article.
 * An red link does not meet that newspaper may not a reliable reference. It is a Marathi magazine published by Indian Express Group, which runs the The Indian Express, which runs Loksatta in Marathi. NOTE: Lokprabha article is hosted on Loksatta site. Other prominent Marathi newspapers like Samana and NAVSHAKTI and magazines like Maher do not  have wiki-articles. The Mumbai University lists Prahaar, Maharashtra Times, Loksatta, Samana as the top media in Mumbai. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 15:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The articles on Kanhopatra in Marathi newspapers are from special Ashadhi Ekadashi (the biggest festival of the Varkaris) columns that newspaper run around the time of the festival. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Are the Vithoba temple websites reliable sources for biographical information on the subject, or should they be regarded as reliable sources only for the devotees' POV, in which case they need to be cited with attribution.
 * As said there is no "reliable" history of Kanhopatra, her history is mingled with her legend - devotees' POV. It depicts a version of the traditional tale. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is this website a reliable source ? Who is the publisher ?
 * Temporarily removed. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Same question for this website.
 * This reference can be replaced with the movies or movie cassette cover as the reference as they provide the same information. This reference was added to avoid trouble of the reader to go and find the movie cassettes. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sellergren lists Ranade (1988), Tulpule (1979), Vanita (1989), Ghanananda and Stewart-Wallace (1979), and Abbott and Godbole (1934-1935) as sources on Kanhopatra (and related saints). The article references Abbott and Godbole but doesn't use any of the other sources.
 * Ranade (Ranande, R.D. (1999) [1933]. Mysticism in Maharashtra. Motilal Banarsidass Publ. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=73vbTVsPga0C&pg=RA1-PA208&dq=kanhopatra&lr=&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a#PRA1-PA208,M1.) and Abbott and Godbole (Mahīpati; Abbott, Justin Edwards; Godbole, Narhar R. (1988). "39". Stories of Indian Saints: An English Translation of Mahipati's Marathi Bhaktavijaya.) are used. Bhaktivijaya and Bhaktalilaamrita - both by Mahipati - are the only primary written sources of the life-stories of Varkari saints apart from their own abhnaga poetry. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Vanita (1989) "Three Women Saints of Maharashtra: Muktabai, Janabai, Bahinabai" Kanhopatra is not the central topic of the article. The Sellergren article discusses Janabai as well as Kanhopatra. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:20, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * These objections are not insurmountable (for example, it may be the case that Ranade's book doesn't contain anything that Sellergen's article doesn't, since the latter is based upon and possibly expands the former), but at an FAC review you'll need to be prepared to defend (1) the reliability and quality of the sources used, and (2) comprehensiveness of the sources (i.e., no significant sources have been left out.)
 * This is just a high level comment about an issue that is of increasing importance at FACs. I'll take a more fine-grained look at the article over the next few days and add my comments here. Abecedare (talk) 06:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Anish
 * In the first line I would suggest replacing Maharashtrian with Marathi. Marathi makes more sense and the word Maharashtra and Maharashtrian coame in existence only after 1960s.
 * The section on Life seems to be too long. I suggest that it be sub-divided into into something like: Early Life, Path to devotion and death. The heading Details of Kanhopatra's life are uncertain should come as a sub-section and merged with death sub-section. These headings are just suggestion as a starting point and something better can be incorporated.
 * Done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Redlinks are looking a bit odd. I suggest that try to create atleast a stubs for these redlink.
 * The redlinks in Vithoba compelled me to start this article. Stubs will be created for links.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Created stubs. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I will be giving more comments later as and when I find to review it.--Anish (talk) 07:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What is a a tarati tree. Is it same as Tarata tree. Then we can link it. Some detail or link should be given for this tree and its uncommon name arouses some curosity.--Anish (talk) 10:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Tarati (तरटी) is a Marathi name of a plant. In Sanskrit, tarati is name of a thorny plant. Could not find its scientific name. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Translation of phrases like Nako Devaraya Anta Aata and Patita tu pavanahe in brackets would be appreciated by the reader and would add value to the article.--Anish (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The sentence:"Kanhopatra is formally included in the list of Sants, meaning saints in Marathi" needs some clarification. If it is formally, then by whom—by some organisation or some church etc.--Anish (talk) 10:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Clarified. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This sentence:"Kanhopatra is considered unique since she is the only prominent Maharashtrian woman without a traditional family" is likely to be challenged and needs some reference. Again, I would word it like-"Kanhopatra is considered unique since she is the only prominent woman in Maharashtra who rose to fame/sainthood without a traditional family backing."--Anish (talk) 10:41, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Reworded. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment from Nemonoman I was very pleased to be the GA reviewer, because it seemed to me that with very little additional effort, this pleasant article could be polished to be at GA status. To get it to FA status will, I think, be a bigger effort.

I'm not very familiar with the subject, but I'm with the editors above in seeing that there the sources are not very varied nor very impressive. I don't know if there are other sources that might be cited, but without a larger variety, I think FA will be hard. The content will probably need to be expanded if the article is to be an FA, answering through additional information some of the questions it suggests:
 * About the expansion: Ælfheah of Canterbury is much shorter and still a FA. FA demands only comprehensiveness, not length. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but I wouldn't pass it at current depth, as it seems less substantial than most FAs. Compare with Vithoba: that's FA substance, IMO.. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Variations in the legends -- how the story has changed over time
 * No evidence that the story has changed over time. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:16, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, then, smartypants, you describe 2 versions of death . How did that happen? --Nemonoman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Various sources tell various tales. They include Bhaktivijaya (penned about 300 yrs after her death) and oral narratives among the Varkaris. This is often the case in Hinduism, there are multiple versions of a legend, take the example of Ganesha - there are at least 3-4 versions of his birth. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * More (short) examples of her poetry -- and music snippets if possible
 * I can add more snippets of translations of her poetry. Where should I add it and how many more are needed. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * To be used artfully: particular haunting or popular phrases, or something every Vakari might be expected to know and recite, or something that a scholar has commented on, etc. Her legacy is her poetry: let's show that off a bit...--Nemonoman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * More pictures -- I'm sure SOMEBODY has a picture of the tree, forbidden as that might be
 * Photography in major Hindu temples is forbidden for a long, long time. Photography is only allowed in expectational cases such as for books and for creating photo frames of the principal deities.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes but for my research I took pictures inside temples and everyone was too polite to complain about the ignorant balding middle-aged American tourist. I'm sure some exist. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Also: A small shrine is also dedicated to her in her home town Mangalvedhe. Nobody in Mangalvedhe has a cellphone camera? Surely an exterior shot of that is a possiblity --Nemonoman (talk) 16:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Discussion of her literary or spiritual influence by scholarly sources
 * Her spiritual influence is covered in "Legacy and remembrance", she does not have her literary influence per the sources. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * More about her popular influence: Amar Chitra Katha, I'm sure. Etc.
 * Kanhopatra is not pan-Indian, she is restricted to the Varakari faith in Maharashtra. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then about THAT influence. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

As is, the article whets one's appetite for information, but leaves me at least wanting more.

If additional content gets added, as I hope it will, then additional copyediting will also be needed to bring this article to the standard of "the best Wikipedia has to offer". I will be very pleased to lend a hand on that effort. RedT., I applaud you for your determination to get this article to GA, which took a lot of work, and I admire your initiative to try to get it to FA. For my own part, I regard the FA process as inherently flawed, and very frustrating. Do not take FA review comments personally -- not even mine! -- because in many respects FA reviewers talk about what they WISH they could see rather than what they is actually in the article. FA criteria are very subjectively judgemental -- what exactly is the best writing? -- and difficult to quantify. So you end up competing with the imaginations and opinions of editors, good or bad, and how is one to compete with that? Anyway--good luck and keep me in the loop. --Nemonoman (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)