Wikipedia:Peer review/Karma in Jainism/archive2

Karma in Jainism
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I want to put this article ultimately for FA review. I would appreciated some feedback on copy editing, image licencing and referencing. I would also appreciate feed back on the overall article...whether it is easy to understand and makes some sense. Thanks, Anish (talk) 15:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Previous peer review

The review will be not be in-depth, but will cover overview comments. I will read the entire article after I get more time to do so. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Redtigerxyz's review
 * References:
 * I saw written multiple times, the first occurrence should be as above. later ones can be simply.
 * Use "p. 10" for single page, "pp. 10-15 "for multiple pages.
 * "Dr. Bhattacharya, H. S." should be "Bhattacharya, Dr. H. S." (surname title first name)
 * ref 75-76 lack pp.
 * WP:OVERLINK: terms like modern science, atoms, physics, molecules need not be linked as most people know what they are, also they are not much relevant to the religion article.
 * Images: Can authentic Jain images be introduced?
 * Image in section "Reincarnation and transmigration" and "Maturity" show Hindus (not jains) with tilaks, the linga and the sadhu.
 * IMO, image in Causes of attraction and bondage, is a mismatch, not encyclopaedic and has a cartoony feel. Buddha is often shown surrounded by all the moha-maya, is Mahavira/jain saint also pictured the same way. Search for images like that
 * IMO, image in Release from karmas has too much black in the left bottom corner, what is it?

--Anish (talk) 06:22, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Images will always be an issue in Jainism as there are very few free images available.
 * In section "Reincarnation and transmigration" and "Maturity" I have used images from Himalayan Academy as no such images exuist for Jainism. Since It depicts a concept that is similar in jainism, I have used it. Hope there should not be a problem here.
 * The image in Causes of attraction and bondage was created by me with free cliparts as that was the only solution that I could see. What do you suggest, SHould it be removed or what?
 * The black at the bottom is the karmic dust leaving the soul.


 * I would suggest removal of "Causes of attraction and bondage" image. Now you have explained I can see the dust, the interpretation of the "Release from karmas" image is not so explicit and would be difficult to grasp to a complete outsider.
 * The Himalayan Academy images are OK as the concept is same, but Jain images would be appreciated. I would suggest search for Jain images, if possible. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 16:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I will see what can be done about images.--Anish (talk) 12:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

-- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "According to the Jains, all souls are.." " the Jain texts " why is there a "the" before Jains?
 * Check for WP:OVERLINK: 1 example: repeated linking of Jainism "In Jainism, karma is referred to as karmic dirt," besides repeat, things like "cosmos" need not be linked, as already [[Jain cosmology" is linked.
 * "Morality and ethics are important in Jainism not because of a god", should it not be: "because of God"
 * I see some spellings in IAST and some in normal English, I suggest common spelling like Krishna need not in IAST as " Kṛṣṇa", few will recognize Kṛṣṇa is Krishna.
 * Wikipedia discourages honorific like lord: lord Māhavīra -> should be Mahavira (IAST removed). Add a short description of who Mahavira is like "founder of Jainism"


 * Usage or non usage of “a” or “the” is on account of my grammatical limitation. Please do correct any such errors that you see. Same is the case in use of capital or lower case letters. Please assist in this.
 * Use of IAST and Diacritics. I feel we should use proper spellings as these are the standards used by scholars. If persons don’t understand Kṛṣṇa is Krishna, we call always wikilink it. The problem is Mahavira without diacritics is half baked spelling. Either it should be Mahaveer or Māhavīra. --Anish (talk) 07:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How many people in the world are going to understand Kṛṣṇa is Krishna, see related discussion about use of IAST (Mahābhārata) against the common Mahabharata at Talk:Mahabharata.

Common English spellings like Shiva, Ganesha are used in the title and as much as throughout the articles, not the IAST Śiva or Ganeśa, which though academic, are known to small group of scholars and readers of books written by scholars. The majority of common Indians will not recognize Śiva, they will recognize Shiva as newspapers, magazines use the common English spelling. It is a waste of time for a Hindu reader if a reader clicks on Kṛṣṇa, and finds Kṛṣṇa is Krishna. I suggest that common Anglicized spellings. Anyway if you disagree, it is OK, not a major FA issue, though a readability issue for non-IAST readers. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 09:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not just use the more common spelling in parenthesis after the fist usage, so "Kṛṣṇa (Krishna)" similar to what is done with abbreviations? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 13:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea, or maybe vice versa: "Krishna (Kṛṣṇa)"?? More suggestions next week. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 07:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, it is a brilliant idea. It fact all the difficult prakrit/ sanskrit words should have a meaning in brackets.--Anish (talk) 08:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, I do agree that the name of the article should be common English rather than IAST.--Anish (talk) 15:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Query: Images File:Destruction of Karmas1.jpg as well as File:Soul Attracting Karma.jpg seem to be collages, correct me if wrong. In the summary of the the image, write the source of each clipart/pic to avoid any doubts about copyright infringement. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As usual you are right.....I have used cliparts available with Microsoft PPT to create this colage and used the PPT programme to add coloring and dots for dust. If you feel that these images will not pas muster or do not value we can delete these images from these articles. As it is you have done a good job on adding other images (Gold et all). I await your reply.--Anish (talk) 04:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: As requested, here are some suggestions for improvement.
 * The lead should be several paragraphs, not just one long one as it currently is. I usually write (or at least tweak) the lead last, after reading the whole article again.
 * I agree. I think once this article improves a bit more we will relook lead.


 * This needs a ref Over the centuries, Jain monks have developed a large and sophisticated corpus of literature describing the various aspects of working of the karmas, the nature of the soul and the ways and means of attaining salvation. My rule of thumb is that every quote, every statistic, every extraordinary claim and every paragraph needs a ref.
 * Agreed. I will look for references or reword it.


 * The "Atomic theory" section does not mention the words atom or atomic or theory.
 * Maybe we can rename it as material theory. What do you suggest?


 * One issue I found was that karma is usually lowercase, but is capitalized in at least a few places (such as Jains cite inequalities, sufferings, and pain as evidence for the existence of Karma. in the lead) This should be conistent (I assume lowercase)
 * You are right. Will lowercase it. ✅


 * There are also what seem to be disagreements between karma (and karmic dirt) being treated as a singular or plural noun
 * Need to check what scholars treat it.
 * I have checked what scholars like Jaini and Dundas do. Karma is singular when it is referred to as a theory or concept or law. It is plural when it is discussed as material atoms or as different types of karmas.✅ Made changes as per my understanding.


 * The article should not use first person plural (we) as it is not really encyclopedic in tone (for example When these two components—consciousness and ripened karma—interact, we experience the life as we know it at present.[8]). It is OK when these are in direct quotes.
 * How about “the soul experiences the life” instead of” we” ? ✅


 * WP:HEAD says that headers should avoid repeating the title of the article, so "Criticism of karma theory" could just be "Criticism", for example
 * OK ✅ Changed and simplified the headings. But kept "Predominance of Karma" as it is as simply "Predominance" looks a bit odd. Any suggestion?


 * Since some of the images are self-made, are the other images used in them also free? For example File:Soul Attracting Karma.jpg seems to have clip art in it, are these free? Or is the image of the Tirthankar in the upper part of File:Destruction of Karmas1.jpg free?
 * I have used cliparts that come with miscrosoft word and cliparts.org. I am not sure about its status on copyrights. I have written to some publishers to free up some images for Wikipedia. Hopefully, something will turn up.


 * Could some of the images from the article on Jainism be adapted for use here? If there was an image of a temple or people meditating, could those be used here with a caption like "Meditation is one discipline which can be used for release from karams"?
 * An excellent idea. Will check up on it.


 * Article is very list-y (especially towards the end), these should be converted to text where possible to improve the flow of the article.
 * You mean sections on modifications and release? Will it effect FA? To me it appears better if it is in list format.


 * Needs a copyedit to smooth the prose in places.
 * I know it needs a serious copy edit. I am banking on tiger and Alastair for this. I have reached my limitation on language :)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog. I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 05:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I will try to make more comments soon, but am closing for now. Must go listen to Karma Chameleon ;-)

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A bit more - where people are named, I would identify them in some way (usually to say why they are being quoted), so indologist Robert J. Zydenbos is good, but who is J. L. Jaini? Things like "] K. V. Mardia, in his book The Scientific Foundations of Jainism, ..." are OK too.
 * I would try and explain how the Modifications are supposed to be achieved
 * Also if things are kept as lists, I would make them parallel in their construction - for example in the Modifications section only number 5 repeats the name of the modifcation (Saṃkramaṇa)
 * I found the karma is like gravity argument made things easier to understand - could it be presented earlier in the article (or would that mess up the logical structure)?