Wikipedia:Peer review/Kathleen Ferrier/archive1

Kathleen Ferrier
This peer review discussion has been closed.. This is the biography of a singer of a bygone era. She died of cancer aged 41, in 1953, having built a wide repertory which included opera, oratorio, lieder and folksong. She gained a mass following through her radio broadcasts to the homebound, entertainment-starved Brits of the postwar era, and according to some was, when she died,  the second-most popular woman in Britain after the newly-crowned Queen Elizabeth. Her recordings have been constantly reissued and still sell well. I am currently working on a subarticle detailing Ferrier's copious recording history, as a companion to this. Comments welcome on all aspects of the main article: prose, pics, refs etc. Brianboulton (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Tim riley comments
 * Lead
 * "relatively short" – some people (including Fowler if I recall aright) get hot under the collar about "relatively" – "relative to what?" they cry. You could safely lose the adverb altogether, perhaps.
 * Main image is not a good scan; the grid pattern is distracting. Perhaps find another image?
 * I'm hoping to improve this one. I want an image with a definite provenance, and this fits the bill in that respect. If it can't be improved I'll consider changing it. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (later)Jappalang has enhanced it by getting rid of the scaly pattern. I think it will do now. It's not the best photograph of Kath, but the non-free use rationale could be challenged were we to use one of the many touched-up publicity shots that adorn her Decca releases. Brianboulton (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great deal better. Round of applause for Jappalang's skill! Tim riley (talk) 09:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Telephonist and pianist
 * "invited by the Manchester studios of the BBC" – sounds oddly anthropomorphic
 * "playing works by Johannes Brahms and Percy Grainger" – the latter may possibly need his first name (you might consult the distinguished author of the WP article on that subject) but Brahms certainly doesn't.
 * "examinations at the Royal Academy of Music" – taken at the RAM or remotely?
 * She went to London, so "at" Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "her musical life centered on the piano" – in America presumably
 * "new speaking clock service (known generally as "TIM")" – Oh, Lord! I'm old enough to remember when it still was known as TIM (and you got the test match score by dialling UMP) but be that as it may, does the parenthesis add anything to the reader's understanding here?
 * I remember both, too. But I agree the note is unnecessary here. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "Humphrey Burton would later write" – does the subjunctive add anything here?
 * Marriage
 * "a mutual love of dancing" – you'll get some pedantic soul (not me) carping at this use of "mutual" for "common" rather than "reciprocal". I reckon if it's good enough for Dickens it's good enough for me.
 * Early singing career
 * "Carlisle" – first mention in main text" – a link here, perhaps?
 * It is linked at first mention. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "When Albert Wilson's departed" – possessive left over from earlier wording I imagine
 * Career apex, 1948–51
 * "the renowned black American contralto" – does it matter here what colour Anderson was?
 * In this context, no. More generally, it was the reason that her Met debut was delayed until she was well past 50 - but that's another story. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Final performances, illness and death
 * "the first female vocalist to receive this honour since 1914" – perhaps say who got it in 1914?
 * Muriel Foster


 * Assessment and legacy
 * "Granta editor Ian Jack" – definite article before Granta?
 * "Lord Harewood" – link?
 * Already linked at first mention Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

That's my lot. I don't think I've ever concluded a peer review with moist eyes before. Heartrending! A first class article, as I need hardly say. Tim riley (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments which I have generally acted on as you suggest - specific responses only as required. It was emotionally exhausting to write; most of the time I was listening to her voice as I worked through the Decca edition, which gave added poignancy. Brianboulton (talk) 00:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Afterthought: you generally use unspaced em-dashes, but there are a couple of spaced en-dashes. Deliberate? Tim riley (talk) 10:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The only ones I'm aware of are within quotes where I have reproduced the material in its original format, as printed. I believe that's one one is supposed to do, though I could be wrong. Brianboulton (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt comments

I couldn't help linking some of my favourite pieces and would like to see some of them, some of her strong parts in the lead, like Bach - Elgar - Mahler, together with the few operatic roles already mentioned. I need rather less there on her beginnings, and wonder about the talk about cancer before we even know what she did. The article is fascinating reading, I never knew what she had planned in Bayreuth. "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that there should be a better indication in the lead of the range of her repertory, and I have extended the first sentence to mention Bach, Elgar, Mahler etc. On her early life, a comprehensive biographical article requires inclusion of succinct information on the subject's early life; I honestly don't think that what we have here is excessive. Ob Bayreuth, I think it is more what others were planning for her - there is no indication that she would accepted Wieland Wagner's overtures, even if she had recovered her health. Brianboulton (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments by Wehwalt:


 * Really couldn't find very much to criticise, which leads me to believe that either I'm getting careless, or you're avoiding my usual objections! Anyhow, here we go.
 * Lede
 * I would identify Sargent as a conductor.
 * "and incapacity" Really, to an American that would be taken to refer to someone of limited mental capacity.  Can you select another word?
 * Early life
 * "The Lancashire branch originated in the 19th century, when Private Thomas Ferrier of the Pembrokeshire Regiment was stationed near Blackburn during a period of industrial unrest." For the sake of the good name of Her Majesty's Troops, could we say that he married and/or settled there? As it stands, it sounds like-well, anything's possible.
 * "showed prowess". I think this is too strong a term, perhaps "promise"?
 * Early singing career
 * " it was here that Ferrier "made her first serious appeal to musicians". Can the "why?" of this be expanded upon?
 * Stardom
 * "on the provincial tour which followed " This should be the start of a new sentence.
 * "Ferrier's limited acting abilities caused some difficulties in her relationship with the conductor, Fritz Stiedry" I find it a bit odd that it is the conductor up in arms (so to speak) about the acting!
 * "in the next few years." This seems a mildly awkward phrasing, but I was able to think of no better.
 * "She returned to Holland" Perhaps my slight exposure to the Dutch makes me a purist but wouldn't "the Netherlands" be best?
 * "when Sandor was too ill to appear" I think "became" better describes the situation.
 * Failing health
 * "attend the Edinburgh Festival" I'm guessing you are trying to avoid a double use of "perform".  Perhaps "travel to"?
 * "She was told that the impact on her cancer would be insignificant, but that her voice might be badly affected;" This seems like such a no-brainer that perhaps it is not necessary to mention the discussion of her having the operation.
 * I think this information should stay in, as a valid comment on her medical history, though I have altered the wording. Brianboulton (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * " a bone in her left thigh " As I thought from a quick check, and confirmed with the thigh article, there is only one bone in the thigh, the femur, which I think people have heard of.  Suggest just saying "left femur" or "femur in her left leg".
 * "despite two further operations, her condition deteriorated further." Suggest deleting final word.
 * " 8 October 1953—a date on which" Suggest "the date on which".
 * Assessment
 * "Coronation" Could some way be found of mentioning the Coronation earlier?  Perhaps she watched it on the telly?  Not everyone, especially us Yanks, know when the Coronation was.  Probably most assume that the Queen invaded Normandy in 1066 and has been there ever since (and Philip).
 * Recordings
 * "has drawn attention to numerous works which she did not record" I gather she performed them, though?  Perhaps that should be stated.

Well, that is all I have. Very smooth writing, kept focused and on the ball. Well done, looking forward to the FAC.
 * Thank you for these comments. All have been acted as you suggest, with just the one point as indicated above. Brianboulton (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me!--Wehwalt (talk) 22:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments by Apterygial
 * "The Lancashire branch originated in the 19th century, after Private Thomas Ferrier of the Pembrokeshire Regiment settled in the area after being stationed near Blackburn during a period of industrial unrest." The repetition of after here makes the sentence run on a bit. Could it be rephrased?
 * Bearing in mind that I'm essentially musically ignorant (which is probably why you asked me to review!) I'm wondering about the rationale behind the method of naming composers; why, for example, are Bach, Brahms, Mahler and Elgar only given surnames, and then Grainger, Ferguson, Wordsworth and Rubbra have their full names given?
 * It is an accepted convention in music that only the acknowledged master composers are awarded surname-only status. To some extent, of course, this is a matter of judgment. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * "and became LRAM". Even with the part of the sentence before this it's still a touch confusing; could it be reworded to avoid the acronym?
 * The full sentence reads: "In 1931, aged 19, Ferrier passed her Licentiate examinations at the Royal Academy of Music and became LRAM": This doen't seem confusung; perhaps slightly tautologous, since "passed her Licentiate examinations" and "became LRAM" are essentially the same thing. I'll tweak it.


 * It's probably worth noting earlier that between 1935 and 1940 she performed as Kathleen Wilson, or note it in the sentence where you explain she reverted to her maiden name.
 * I wonder whether it would be easier to say "24 December" rather than "Christmas Eve"; we may have readers (from other cultures, for example) who would be unsure of the date, and it seems that in this case there is no real connection with the festival itself.
 * "On the provincial tour which followed the festival it failed to attract the public and incurred heavy financial losses." The '"it" here presumably refers to the opera; better to make it clearer by saying "the opera".
 * But this would give "the opera" three times in as many lines. I think it's OK as it stands. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you have any more information on the acting difficulties that caused friction with Stiedry?
 * Not really. Ferrier was not a trained actress; her only previous stage experience had been with Lucretia. Stiedry, it seems, was an  autocrat who lacked patience and understanding.  But they got by in the end. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Per MOS:QUOTE, you're free to change quoted dashes to fit in with the rest of the article. So, "My God, what a voice – and what a face!" for example can be "My God, what a voice—and what a face!"
 * "she sang a St Matthew Passion at the Royal Albert Hall" (the "a" can be deleted).
 * Very minor point—if a quote ends in an exclamation mark do you still need the full stop outside the quote? ("Princess M sang – very good!".)
 * Yes, as the full stop concludes the whole sentence of which the quote is only a part. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Is "treatement" in the Guardian's quote (in Final performances, illness and death) a transcription error?
 * Christianson or Christiansen?
 * Have you considered adding one or more short samples of her singing, under a fair-use claim? Provided you could find suitable samples, it may go a long way to helping the reader understand the descriptions of her voice.
 * I am not competent to make soundfiles. If someone wants to tackle this, that's fine by me! Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

A very sad story, and yet very well-written. Most of these comments aren't problems at all, just points for potential improvement. Apterygial talk 08:01, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these most useful comments. Where I have not responded I have acted on your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 11:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

in a tearing hurry from smerus

Very nice article, deserves promotion undoubtedly. I don't have time to do it justice but 2 things caught me on a brief runthrough:
 * only one recording of Elgar? check this - there is e.g. certainly a recording of 'Land of Hope and Glory'
 * Wny 'Madame' Alma Mahler? - unnecessarily pompous.

Best, --Smerus (talk) 10:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your kind comments. I have de-Madameised Alma, though that is how she is referred to in the source (and more generally, I believe). On Land of Hope and Glory, this must have been taken from the a broadcast recording, or a private tape, and issued many years latet (after 1992, or Campion would have picked it up). I have amended the text, and will make the appropriate alteration in the list of recordings article. There may well be other late issues from recordings held by broadcasting companies, and I'll watch out for them. Brianboulton (talk) 15:31, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I am closing the peer review with a view to an FAC nomination. Grateful thanks to all the above for their help. Brianboulton (talk) 22:14, 21 June 2011 (UTC)