Wikipedia:Peer review/Laurie Nash/archive1

===Laurie Nash=== This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because it is my intention to eventually take this to Featured Article Status. Nash was a cricketer and Australian rules footballer so I'd be particular interested to get feedback from anyone with no background in either sport to ensure it is understandable by the general public.

Thanks, Roisterer (talk) 11:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC) :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Laurie Nash/archive1.


 * I'm not sure what sort of feedback I'm supposed to be giving but overall I think it is excellent. I would only think that the article doesn't cover his coaching stint as much as perhaps it should. --TheGrantley (talk) 12:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure either but I guess this is as good a start as any. I haven't found much on his coaching beyond what is already mentioned. The NLA digital newspapers are in the process of digitalising 1953 Argus newspaper, which will cover more of this. Hopefully this will be ready soon. --Roisterer (talk) 11:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Its minor, but I'd question the part about weight gain at the end of the lead - is it really that important? Its a minor quibble, and otherwise its a very interesting article.  Canada Hky (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I have removed the weight gain reference from the lead. --Roisterer (talk) 11:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what this means but I'm hoping it's something good.--Roisterer (talk) 11:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It means I am "doing" the peer review, ;-) Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: I think that all of the facts seem to be here, but there are some issues with cleaning up the article before FAC. Here are some suggestions for improvement, though this is not an exhaustive list.
 * There are some issues that the Toolbox links identify.
 * For example the automated tips point out that the article uses both American and British English (assume British / Australian English would be best here)
 * There is one disambiguation link that needs to be fixed
 * Done.


 * The External link checker finds one dead link
 * Done.

I'm not sure how to fix this but I'll see what I can do.
 * I would set the width of the image in the infobox to 200 pixels, the width of the original image. On my monitor the lead image is 230 px wide, and looks worse than the smaller original
 * Done. Jenks24 (talk) 04:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * WP:LEAD says the lead should not be more than four paragraphs long, but this is five paragraphs. I think the last paragraph could be merged with the fourth.
 * Done. Joined the last paragraph to the penultimate par.


 * Spell out abbreviations on first use, like VFL in the lead, so Victorian Football League (VFL)
 * Done: Unless I missed one...


 * I am also not sure about Jnr and Snr - I think I would spell out Junior and Senior, at least the first time (Am. Eng. uses Jr. and Sr.)
 * Done: I have spelled out Junior and Senior throughout.


 * There are several places in the article that uses wording like "it is claimed that..." - for FAC, I think it would be better to specifically attribute the claim to the author, so "It was also claimed that former Prime Minister of New Zealand Sir Walter Nash was a relative, as was pianist Eileen Joyce.[9]" could be something like "''Wallish's biography claimed that former Prime Minister of New Zealand Sir Walter and pianist Eileen Joyce were relatives.[9]
 * Done


 * The article also has a fair number of short (one or two sentence) paragraphs that disturb the flow of the article - they should be combined with others or perhaps expanded
 * Done: Combined several paragraphs.


 * Another thing that might help the prose is to convert passive voice into active voice where possible - for example It has been speculated by cricket historian Bernard Whimpress that Nash's decision to throw the ball may have been regarded by selectors as "part of a parcel of anti-social behaviours which told against regular selection" for either Australia or Victoria.[30] could just be Cricket historian Bernard Whimpress speculated that Nash's decision....
 * I don't think I have missed any here.

Done - I made this into a normal quote.
 * I am not sure that the large quote in the box in the Test debut section meets WP:NFCC (assuming it is copyrighted). Even if it is not copyrighted, I think much of it could be summarized / paraphrased and keep the best quote - perhaps "Nash is a short, powerfully built man, who .... made the ball kick awkwardly, several balls getting up head-high, and in one spell before luncheon took three wickets for four runs. Nash has plenty of stamina for a fast bowler and is considered by some to be the man for whom the selectors are searching to fill the place of Gregory."
 * I understand why there are two infoboxes (two sports), but does the football infobox have to repeat his birth date or other non-football information?
 * Make sure to provide context to the reader - for example I would give the actual date in On the day he was discharged from the Army, Nash played an internal trial match for South Melbourne[157]...
 * Done

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are many places where the article could use a copyedit - part of it is style, but there are many places where a polysyllabic or obscure word is used when a shorter one would often do. For example "eventuate" in There was also talk that Nash would be invited to join the touring team to Canada that Arthur Mailey was compiling,[44] although this did not eventuate.
 * A model article is useful for ideas and examples to follow - there are several FAs on athletes, for example Don Tallon is an FA on an Australian cricketeer and might be a good model.


 * Thanks very much for this very useful Peer Review. I am working on it (and am planning a GA Review in return). --Roisterer (talk) 08:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * mixed p. 54. and p. 54 [no dot] seems to have come back again (in the recent expansions?)  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  01:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.


 * Is the comparison to Fingo/McCabe/O'Reilly really apt? Of those three, onmly Fingo had selection problems, and all of their problems were basically related to arguing with Bradman and getting harassed, not being thrown off the team. OTOH, Bradman wanted to use Nash to intimidate opponents, but others, such as Woodfull, did not. In the lead, sectarianism is stated as fact, whereas in the body, the evidence is poor sportsmanship and bouncers, and Woodfull, while a strict Protestant himself, was known for being above sectarianism by all accounts (organising appointments for McCabe and O'Reilly with Catholic priests, for instance). The claim that people of modest upbringing were discriminated against, appears dubious, per the many Test cricketers of the time who went to ordinary high schools.  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Fans old enough to remember Nash at his peak also list him as the greatest player they ever saw" All of them? no qualification in present
 * Changed to "Some fans"


 * Bit about Manning Clark should be in playing style, it isn't legacy
 * Done


 * When he was selected for the Australian Football Hall of Fame in 1996, the summary commented " One of the most gifted players ever, his career was half as long as many but it shone twice as brightly as most. Considered by many judges (himself included) the best player in the land...". --- Is this quote mainstream? I mean, it he was one of the true greats, why isn't he one of the 22 "Legend" status. In lots of places in the article, there are quotes saying he is one of the very best ever, but if he never came higher than 16 in Brownlow (yes I know the Brownlow is always controversial) and wasn't ranked high in hall of fame, then isn't there a consensus otherwise from the dozens of people on the panel? Are these frequent strong praise quotes representative?
 * Is the quote about him being the best all-rounder of Australia mainstream? I have a book at home saying that Harold Hardwick (Olympic gold, individual Olympic medal in swimming, national boxing champion) was... Is Mr Shaw a bit AFL centric? There were plenty of dual internationals in the old days. Other books might say Miller, or Lindwall if they were RL oriented (or Brian Booth maybe)  YellowMonkey 
 * I moved Shaw's quote to the end ("Honours and Legacy") so it doesn't have as much prominence.

( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll ) 05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * " take no prisoners approach" is rather vague; one can be relentless yet not do the dubious things (by that era's standards)  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "and was a cricketer of repute, opening the bowling for Hamilton in a match against the 1920–21 touring English side" in those days, touring teams often played non-FC matches against village teams. Where is the proof of his father being a quality cricketer?  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Inconsistent capitalisation of some things; usually capitalising things that aren't titles or proper nouns
 * You can use shorthand 2/13 after explaining it the first tiem
 * O'Brien was a rookie and not a Test palyer yet when the wicket fell
 * "By playing for Victoria in this match, Nash became the first person to represent two different states in cricket and Australian rules football" HE didn't play cricket for Vic until 1936, so this is out of place
 * "Nash continued to play district cricket and was considered a strong possibility for the 1934 tour of England. He was chosen to play in the Bert Ironmonger/Don Blackie benefit match, which was also a Test trial, but was forced to withdraw after contracting rheumatism in his shoulder. Nash's replacement, Hans Ebeling, bowled well enough to secure a place in the tour squad instead." out of sequence, as this was in early 1934 before the football season
 * "Nash continued to cement his reputation as one of the top footballers in the country, being called "the most versatile player in Australia",[81] leading South Melbourne to the Grand Final, their third in a row, only to be defeated by Collingwood" Article lacks meat in some places like this, where no actual information about what he actually did is conveyed; No quantitative detail on his actual contribution is given
 * Article says Nash alternated between CHF and CHB, so in cases of notable performances, should say what he was doing that day. Simply saying he shut down his opponent (Mueller) doesn't tell us whether he kicked/prevented many goals
 * "the country's outstanding all round cricketer", Wallish said that, not the original journo
 * I do wonder whether the large graph is undue weight, as the cutoff is right at 10 wickets to allow Nash in, and not others who could have fluked it. Nash also had a sticky wicket in 2 of his 4 innings. Most of the others on that list bowled way more balls than he did.  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment about Merv HArvey isn't anythign specific and could be put in the style section.
 * Done.

More generally, the article only discusses notable match-winning achievements without discussing any form slumps, and gives me the impression of bordering on advocacy of Nash. Perhaps this is inherited from Mr Wallish's book (printed in a small-time publisher and has quite a few typos), which I've skimmed through and is rather folksy and written in a soft way and always refers to him as "Laurie" but the others by their surname. Did Frith (a world-leading historian) have more to say about him?  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll ) 05:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't found anything else by Frith on Nash. I agree that Wallish writes in a folksy style and he admits to being a fan of Nash. I haven't really found anything that is deeply critical of Nash (except, IIRC, Wallish interviewed a cricketing contemporary of Nash who believed McCormick was better). I can include this.

Thanks for the feedback and am working on it.--Roisterer (talk) 11:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The book uses "lead" [past tense] over and over, and confuses "accept" with "except" which worries me  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  05:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

"Nash was also the first person to be a professional club cricketer in Australia and the first fully professional Australian rules footballer." Interesting claim: from the earliest times in Aus cricket, there were professionals such as Alec Bannerman in Sydney and the MCC in Melbourne had players of the ilk of Cosstick, TW Wills, much later WW Armstrong etc. In football, many full-time players were paid under the table (see eg. Lionel Frost's "The Old Dark Navy Blues" where he discusses the large number of players in Carlton's 1906-08 flag teams who were full-time professionals), then there are players such as hall of famer Phil Matson []
 * On the football side, Nash was considered a full-time professional as he was paid enough to not have to work. I looked at the Matson example you gave and it didn't specifically state he was a full-time professional. I'll try to find the Frost book you mention to see if I need to change the edit. For the cricket, I haven't seen any evidence that the players you mention were professional club cricketers (and I recently read Haigh's biography of Armstrong, where I don't recall any reference to being a professional club cricketer. I'll go back and check this though. --Roisterer (talk) 10:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

If you go back to the 19thC, there was a small band of Aus cricketers who were professional. In Sydney, the Bannerman bros., in Melbourne the MCC hired pros such as Cosstick, Wills, George Coulthard and so on, this is well documented by ppl such as Harte, Pollard, Dunstan in the "Paddock that Grew", Derriman & Coleman in their works on the NSWCA and VCA. As for footy, many pros were around, they were just paid under the table and given a nominal job by a club sponsor, (sound familiar, a la C Judd, etc.); Jack Dyer admitted to 10quid a week during the depression when the Coulter law stipulated a maximum of 3quid. He still kept his job as a copper, though. My guess is that the well-meaning chap who wrote the biog of Nash wanted to pump him up and invented this claim, which I've certainly never seen made for Nash elsewhere. It's up to you to decide if the book is a RS. Incidentally, Frost wrote another book on football, it has a chapter on Matson and what a unique character he was and he certainly plied his trade as a pro in WA, SA & Vic, making himself available to the highest bidder.