Wikipedia:Peer review/Like a Prayer (song)/archive3

Like a Prayer (song)
I've listed this article for peer review because I think this article, on one of the most controversial song and video feels like just appropriate for FAC, however there might be few tweaks and prose concerns that I might be overlooking. I would like to have a prose review and copy edit so that it can be taken through FAC. Thanks, — I B  [ Poke ] 05:17, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Previous peer review
 * Update so that it does not get archived. — I B  [ Poke ] 09:03, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Update. — I B  [ Poke ] 04:37, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Media review from SNUGGUMS
I'll kick this off with a media review: The above shouldn't take long to fix. Might comment on other aspects later on. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:53, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The FUR from File:Like a Prayer (Single) Madonna.png is incomplete; there shouldn't be any fields containing "n.a."
 * File:Andraé Crouch cropped.JPG is derived from File:Andraé Crouch.JPG, which is claimed as own work. I will assume good faith since I can't find the image anywhere else.
 * I'm not sure how File:LikeAPrayerSample.ogg benefits the article
 * I'm updating the sample rationale. — I B  [ Poke ] 05:58, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * File:MadonnaReInventionTour4.jpg is properly licensed, though it would be much better for the "Live performances" section
 * While File:Madonna Live 8 - 3.jpg doesn't have any copyright issues, I wouldn't recommend using this since Madge's face can't be seen very well in it
 * File:LeonRobinsonOct10.jpg is A-OK to use
 * File:Madonna-Like a Prayer-Music Video.jpg has an appropriate FUR, though I'd adjust its caption to reflect responses to that scene to demonstrate its significance
 * File:Lienz - Fanziskanerkirche - Außenansicht - Hände mit Stigmata.jpg is also claimed as own work, and I'll assume good faith here as well since there's nothing viable suggesting otherwise
 * Nothing wrong with the licensing for File:LikeAPrayerAmsterdam.jpg or File:Like A Prayer MDNA Tour.jpg, but I don't recommend including either of them since the former gives a really odd angle of her face and the lighting in the latter is too bright on her
 * No concerns with File:Glee cast.jpg
 * The lighting for File:LIkeAPrayerBlondAmbitionUnderGround.jpg is even worse; scratch this since she can just barely be made out
 * Thank you a lot Snuggums, I had somehow overlooked that you had commented. I will look into the concerns surely. — I B  [ Poke ] 04:29, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This is taking too long actually. — I B  [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 08:42, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi IB. I just noticed you had this article up for peer review (I see for 2 months already now). I'm interested in looking at it. I peer reviewed this before in 2011, not sure how much it may have changed since then, but curious to see. There are a few other articles I'm also interested in looking at, and not sure exactly where "Like a Prayer" will land in the queue, but if you keep this peer review open a little bit longer, I think I should be able to look at it. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 16:27, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Moise you are one of the best editors out there and would be glad to receive your feedback. — I B  [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 04:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your kind words. I'm going to be on holiday for several days, but I've printed off the "Like a Prayer" article and hope to have a good look at it while I'm gone. Then when I come back I can leave some comments for you about the article. Moisejp (talk) 07:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi again, . I'm back from my trip, and while gone I did mark lots of comments on the printed-off copy I made of the article. Now I just need to fit in some time to type them all up here. I've just started an FAC nomination, and need to spend time on addressing people's concerns there, but I will try to allocate some time soon for LAP as well. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 17:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi sounds wonderful. Will look forward to it gladly. — I B   [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 04:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Moise
Hi. I'm probably only going to have time to get down just a few comments tonight, but if I wait till I have a big window of time, I'll never get started, so here goes! Lead:
 * "While a black man is arrested for the murder, Madonna hides in a church for safety seeking strength to go forth as a witness." A bit awkward transition between "safety" and "seeking". Maybe "hides in a church for safety and seeks strength..."
 * "who had used the song in their commercial": I'm not sure about "their" here (sounds slightly awkward to me). If you changed it to "a" commercial there would definitely be no problem.
 * "The company canceled their sponsorship contract with Madonna, but allowed her to retain the fee." Cf. "cancelled" (double l) in Receptions and protest section.
 * " "Like a Prayer" has been featured on five of Madonna's concert tours, most recently the Rebel Heart Tour in 2015." This could get out of date fast. If you're sure you'll always be on top of maintaining the article, it could be ok, though...
 * "The song is noted for the mayhem surrounding the music video": Possibly too strong? Maybe "controversy surrounding..."
 * "and the different interpretations of its content, leading to discussions among music and film scholars."
 * "leading to": suggest "which have led to".
 * But I'm actually not sure about the second half of the sentence at all. Likely most of the commentary is one-directional, in which case "discussions" may not be accurate. (Very often scholars just present their views and it doesn't get as far as becoming a dialogue.)

Background: More soon. Thanks again for your patience! Moisejp (talk) 04:50, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * "But she understood": May I suggest "However, she understood..."
 * "She had certain personal matters on her mind that she thought could be the musical direction of the album. For the title track, Madonna chose topics that until then had been personal meditations never to be shared with the general public. She perused of her personal journals and diaries, and began considering options." Try to replace at least one of these instances of "personal".

Development: Recording:
 * "With superficial pop lyrics about sexuality and religion on the surface,[10] the song had different meaning underneath to provoke reaction from her listeners." Isn't the sexuality the different meaning underneath, not the surface meaning?
 * "Being aghast he requested": Suggest "Being aghast, he requested".
 * "So she started experimenting using just her vocals, giving away to the bridge being composed." I would say "giving way to".
 * Do all the basic instruments need to be wiki-linked (guitar, bass, drums)? I know music articles sometimes wiki-link instruments, but there are an awful lot of wiki-links in this section. I'd recommend removing these ones.
 * "Pratt was not fired, but later he realized that Madonna did not forgive him": Consider whether "had not forgiven him" would be better.
 * "she would call him at late nights for his opinion, and urgently ask him to come to the recording studio, only to be dismissed." Grammatically, the subject of the last clause may not be clear. Consider "only to dismiss him".
 * "Madonna had her own opinion of how the different musical instruments": Her own opinion in relation to who? I suggest "Madonna had a strong opinion".
 * "But the producer felt": Suggest "However, the producer felt".
 * "Junior Vasquez remixed the 12" version of the track, overlaying the choir sound with Fast Eddie's single "Let's Go"." Maybe include a wiki-link for "overlaying" or explain differently. Does this mean he included a sample of "Let's Go"? Moisejp (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Composition:
 * Caption for sound clip: "It then leads to a gospel oriented phase": Suggest "gospel-oriented phase".
 * "The percussion and the choir sound are added interchangeably between the verses and the bridges": Just want to make sure "interchangeably" is the precise word here. It feels not quite right, but it may possibly be that my understanding of what is being conveyed is just not clear enough.
 * "He believed that the complexity": Suggest "said that the complexity".
 * "While singing "Just like a prayer, your voice can take me there, Just like, a muse to me, You're a mystery", a R&B-influenced voice backs Madonna."
 * Is the comma after "just like" in "Just like, a muse to me" correct?
 * I would say "an R&B".


 * "With Madonna's inclusion of double entendres in the lyrics, "Like a Prayer" sounded religious to him but has an undertone of sexual tension." Here "but has" is awkward. You should make it clearer that this is Taraborrelli's interpretation. Even then, "With Madonna's inclusion of double entendres" suggests it is an objective fact that there are double entendres, but then "sounds like" suggests subjectivity regarding the religious/sexual dichotomy. So overall this sentence is confusing.
 * "This was achieved by the gospel choir": It may be safer to say "This was partially achieved by". Moisejp (talk) 07:00, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Critical reception:
 * "Following the release of "Like a Prayer" on March 3, 1989,[19] it received widespread acclaim from critics, journalists and academics." May I suggest "Since the release of "Like a Prayer" on March 3, 1989,[19] it has received widespread acclaim from critics, journalists and academics." Some of the critics, including Taraborrelli, wrote their appraisal well after 1989.
 * (Minor comment) "Lucy O'Brien felt that the most remarkable aspect of "Like a Prayer" was Madonna's usage of liturgical words." Maybe just "O'Brien". She's already been mentioned a couple of times.
 * "From the academic world..." Some of these don't sound very academic, including Popular Music in America: And the Beat Goes On and 1001 Songs.
 * "The author noted the song for merging disparate and contradictory musical features in it." Remove "in it".
 * "noted that there is a polysemy in "Like a Prayer" since the singer": Suggest "noted that there is a polysemy in "Like a Prayer", since the singer" (add comma).
 * "Positive reviews also came from contemporary music critics." I think the article is possibly trying to make a distinction between appraisal that came out right at the time of the release vs. more recent appraisal?? But the actual distinction within the sources cited is not clear to me. The critics in the first and third paragraphs in this section seem to be all a jumble of reviewers from 1990 to well into the 2000s.
 * "According to Rolling Stone's Gavin Edwards, it sounded glorious and "is the most transgressive—and the most irresistible" song of Madonna's career.[29] Jim Farber from Entertainment Weekly commented that the "gospel-infused title track demonstrates that [the singer's] writing and performing had been raised to heavenly new heights"." Be consistent with whether the song is described in present or past tense.
 * "In a review for The Immaculate Collection compilation album, David Browne of the same publication wrote about the composition, which he felt "added poignancy to its spiritual lyrics"." As written now, it seems like weak praise. Moisejp (talk) 04:37, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Chart performance:
 * Image: would it be worthwhile to make the caption related to chart performance. I don't know if it's possible, but it's just an idea.
 * "reached the top of the chart on the issue dated April 22, 1989". I would say "in the issue".
 * It could be a matter of taste but I'd argue there is too much detail in this section. Here are some bits I'd cut out if I had my druthers:
 * "In the United States, "Like a Prayer" debuted at number 38 on the Billboard Hot 100, and reached the top of the chart on the issue dated April 22, 1989.[33][34] It was number one for three weeks, before being replaced by Bon Jovi's "I'll Be There for You".
 * "In Australia, "Like a Prayer" debuted on the ARIA Singles Chart at number three on March 19, 1989. The next week it reached the top of the chart, and stayed there for another four weeks. It was present for a total of 22 weeks on the chart, and was certified platinum by the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA) for shipment of 70,000 copies of the single.[45][46] "Like a Prayer" was also the top-selling single in Australia in 1989.[47] In New Zealand, the song had a similar run as in Australia, by debuting at number three on the RIANZ Singles Chart, and reaching number one the next week."
 * "In the United Kingdom, the song entered the UK Singles Chart at number two "


 * I would tend to lean towards replacing "has" with "had" in the following instances:
 * "According to Nielsen SoundScan, it had also sold 1.1 million digital downloads as of December 2016."
 * "According to the Official Charts Company, it had sold 613,300 copies there as of August 2016."


 * "The song went on to sell over five million copies worldwide and is one of the best-selling singles worldwide." Maybe change the wording here. First it talks about 1989 then 2010, then says "went on to sell over five million copies". That probably means from 1989 onwards but it a little bit sounds like after 2010. The time line is unclear. "...went on to reach sales of over five million" could be less ambiguous. Moisejp (talk) 05:17, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Note Thanks a lot Moisejp and Snugggums, I'm back now to editing and will address these points of course. — I B  [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 06:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi IB. I've still got a bunch more notes to type up for you. Sorry time has flown and I was preoccupied with my FAC, but it seems to be winding down (knock on wood!) and I fully intend to get back to this peer review ASAP. Will be back on this page again very soon! Moisejp (talk) 05:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Music video:
 * "She wanted to address racism by having the video depict a mixed-race couple being shot by the Ku Klux Klan. But on further thinking she finalized on another provocative theme to keep with the song's religious connotations." Suggest "At first, she wanted to address racism by having the video depict a mixed-race couple being shot by the Ku Klux Klan. However, on further thinking she finalized on another provocative theme to keep with the song's religious connotations.
 * "The singer would play the song over and over again and wanted the visuals to display '[T]his story of a girl who...' " I think this means she played the song over and over to try to get ideas for the visuals, and then eventually decided on the story? From the sentence itself it's not very clear, though. Also here "would" could mean the future of the past (something she was planning to do) or something done repeatedly (similar to "used to")—probably the second meaning is intended here but both interpretations are possible. Moisejp (talk) 13:53, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Synopsis:
 * "Suddenly, a woman, representing power and strength, catches her. She advises Madonna to do what is right and tosses her back up." "...representing power and strength" could be subjective. Maybe specify "who so-and-so says represents power and strength". Moisejp (talk) 13:56, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Pepsi commercial:
 * "Madonna had initially refused to dance and sing in the commercial, but later accepted after being introduced to choreographer Vince Paterson." Suggest giving more info about why meeting Paterson made a difference.
 * "Pepsi aired the commercial during the global telecast of the 31st Grammy Awards in February 1989.[59][65] A week later, the advertisement was premiered during NBC's sitcom The Cosby Show, which was one of the most popular shows of that time." Is "premiered" accurate here when it had already been aired? Just checking. Even if it is, other readers like myself may wonder.
 * "Pepsi-Cola Company spokesman Todd MacKenzie said that the advertisement was planned to be aired simultaneously in Europe, Asia, Australia and North America." MacKenzie said it was planned to be aired, but does that mean it was aired simultaneously per plans, or it wasn't aired simultaneously despite plans? Moisejp (talk) 03:15, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Reception and protests:
 * "Pepsi initially wanted to continue airing the commercial, although were taken aback by the protests." Maybe "and were taken aback"? Not sure what "although" is supposed to convey here.
 * "Ultimately Pepsi gave up to the protests and cancelled the campaign." In the lead "canceled" has one l.
 * "The video was also deemed offensive by the American Family Association (AFA). Madonna stated that "art should be controversial, and that's all there is to it", about the controversy." Repetitive.
 * Second paragraph starts with "The video received mostly positive response from the journalist and critics."
 * "Edna Gundersen from USA Today did not understand the media mayhem behind the clip. She pointed out that "Madonna is a good girl in the video. She saves someone. What is the big deal?..." " Unclear how this is positive or negative appraisal.
 * "Taraborrelli described his thoughts: "Madonna danced with such abundance in [the video], as if she knew that she was about to cause a commotion, and couldn't wait to see how it would unfold." " Likewise, unclear how this is positive or negative appraisal.


 * regarding the above comment, one idea would be to add a new section or paragraphs describing critics reaction to the controversy, as opposed to appraisal of the quality of the song.
 * "Taraborrelli described his thoughts:" Maybe ""Taraborrelli described his thoughts as follows:" or something similar.
 * "In addition, the clip was ranked at number 20 on Rolling Stone's "The 100 Top Music Videos" and at number two on VH1's 100 Greatest Videos.[84][85] Fuse TV named "Like a Prayer" one of its 10 "Videos That Rocked The World"." Consider adding years of the awards here for context. Moisejp (talk) 03:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Themes and analysis:
 * "Santiago Fouz-Hernández wrote in his book, Madonna's Drowned Worlds, that the..." I would remove the commas here.
 * "When the singer accidentally cuts her hand on the dagger, it was described as receiving stigmata by scholar Robert McQueen Grant". Awkward.
 * "This was evident when the crime scene is shown in detail, and an identification is established between Madonna and the victim." Suggest maybe "For Grant, this is evident..." Well, I know you're putting critics' commentary in the past tense and the narrative of the video in the present tense, but these collide when they are both together like in this sentence. I'm not sure how you want to handle that but I think something needs to be done for this sentence at least. Moisejp (talk) 04:07, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * "Other themes noted by Metz include the burning crosses scene..." The scene is not a theme in itself.
 * "For the author, it was symbolic of his protest being transferred in Madonna." suggest "For the author, this scene was symbolic of the Black man's protest being transferred in Madonna."
 * "professor Maury Dean felt that another explanation was inevitable. Madonna portrays a successful heroine and thus the whole video becomes about female empowerment." I suggest a colon after "inevitable". Moisejp (talk) 04:35, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Live performances:
 * "She sang it wearing a dress that looked like a cross between a Mediterranean widow's attire and a clergy's robe." Minor suggestion, but may be best to avoid using "cross" here since another meaning of the word is closely tied to some of themes of the song/video. Also "looked like" may be subjective. If you want to be extra clear you could say "that writer Georges-Clause Guilbert has described as", if you feel it is appropriate to do so here.
 * "On his review of the latter release, Entertainment Weekly's Ty Burr praised the "gymnastic dance productions in songs such as 'Where's the Party' and 'Like a Prayer'", calling them "astonishing"." I feel like the prose could be tighter if you reshuffled this a bit and removed mention of "Where's the Party". I haven't looked at the source, but if "astonishing" and "gymnastic dance productions" do apply to "LAP" (regardless of whether they apply to other songs) then likely you could keep the focus here. Also, it was may be easy to paraphrase "gymnastic dance productions" and/or "astonishing"—this could be one welcome opportunity to reduce the number of direct quotes in the article.
 * "Helen Brown from The Daily Telegraph declared the performance as one of the highlights of the tour": "declared" may be unnecessarily strong. Something simple like "called" could do the trick.
 * "The performance was included both in the CD and DVD of the live release of the tour, titled Sticky & Sweet Tour, filmed in Buenos Aires, Argentina from December 4–7, 2008." Maybe "and filmed in Buenos Aires" would flow better.
 * "Joined by a choir and singer Cee Lo Green, Madonna in a black robe sang as the stadium was lit with white light." Here "Madonna in a black robe" is awkward.
 * "Jim Harrington from The Oakland Tribune gave the overall concert a negative review": Was it a performance in Oakland that Harrington reviewed? Would be good to specify. Moisejp (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ""the best use of one since Foreigner's 'I Want to Know What Love Is'" " This is another spot where it would be very easy to paraphrase and (even more so than the "gymnastic dance productions" instance above) where a direct quotation feels unnecessary. If you want to take this to FAC, I strongly suggest going through the article line by line and scrutinize each quotation, with an online thesaurus open to look for synonyms for paraphrasing. Weigh each quotation about how much flavour and preciseness could be lost if you paraphrased, and weigh this against the total number of quotations in the article as a whole. I did that before nominating my last FAC, and I still got a comment that there were too many quotations, so I had to go back and be even more severe in finding ways to paraphrase. Moisejp (talk) 12:40, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Cover versions:
 * When did the Glee episode air?
 * "DJs Meck and Dino created a mashup of the former's 2007 single, "Feels Like Home", with "Like a Prayer" and released it with the name as "Feels Like a Prayer" ": "it with the name as" doesn't feel grammatically correct. Also, do you need commas around "Feels Like Home"? If it was Meck's only 2007 single, it is possible, but still feels unnecessary.
 * "In the United States, "Feels Like a Prayer" debuted at number 36 on the Hot Dance Club Songs chart, and reached a peak of number six, after seven weeks. Too much detail.
 * "In June 2017, Leonard released a piano ballad version of the track". Maybe "the musician Leonard" would be clearer. I assume that is the name of a musician who only goes by his first name?

Legacy:
 * "Priya Elan from the publication noted it as Madonna's "calling card", bestowing the singer with a "legendary" status." I understand from this that Elan called the singer, not the song, "legendary". If so, I feel this is too far removed from the subject at hand, the legacy of "LAP".
 * ""Like a Prayer" was allocated the number one spot on the list." I'm not 100% sure "allocate" is the precise word, but if you feel confident with this usage, fine.
 * ""Like a Prayer"'s impact was more evident on its parent studio album, which shot to the top of the charts once it was released in April 1989."
 * I'm not sure "Like a Prayer"'s is grammatically impossible, but if in doubt I would avoid making a possessive of a song title. I'd reword to say "the impact of "Like a Prayer" ".
 * Also, I presume this sentence is also according to Campbell? Maybe make this clearer in the prose.


 * "Although the commercial intended to promote Pepsi the soft drink, she did not bother to hold even a can of the product"
 * But the Pepsi commercial part of the article says "Both the Madonnas raise their Pepsi cans to each other".
 * If regardless of "Both the Madonnas raise their Pepsi cans", it is true that Madonna didn't hold a can of the product, I wonder if "did not bother to" is precise. In casual English it may be passable, but maybe just "did not hold a can" would be simpler and more precise.


 * "She maintained all along that the Pepsi commercial and the music video were two different commodities and she was right to stand her ground": Would be good to clarify what she was standing her ground against, and how this is relevant to the commercial and video being two different commodities.

OK,, I've finally finished! If you bring this to FAC, I may well notice a few more points, but I think the above has given you enough to start with. Good luck with your ongoing work on the article. Moisejp (talk) 13:08, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Spintendo
This article had a good selection of academic works (particularly the one from Advertising Age) but there are three additional sources which I didn't see used which would prove beneficial to the article:


 * Like a Prayer analyzed through the lens of Feminist theory.
 * Like a Prayer analyzed through the lens of Feminist theory.


 * A collection of articles on Madonna, with the most relevant being Thomas K. Nakayama and Lisa N. Peñaloza's Images of Race and Religion in Madonna's Video "Like A Prayer"
 * A collection of articles on Madonna, with the most relevant being Thomas K. Nakayama and Lisa N. Peñaloza's Images of Race and Religion in Madonna's Video "Like A Prayer"


 * Like A Prayer analyzed through the lens of Postmodernist theory. — Spin tendo Talk 04:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Like A Prayer analyzed through the lens of Postmodernist theory. — Spin tendo Talk 04:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)