Wikipedia:Peer review/List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers/archive1

List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I want positive feedback about how to improve this list. I'm a new editor who has put a lot of time into revamping this page, so I'd like to see what I did wrong and what I did right. I'm also a member of the organization for which this list is related, so I'd like to see if I was able to keep my personal bias in check.

Thanks, NYCRuss   ☎  21:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments
 * Recent featured lists no longer start with this list of..
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The crest needs a fair use rational for use on the alumni page.
 * Any idea how Alpha Kappa Alpha rationalized their use on their similar page? NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Alpha Kappa Alpha went through FL a few years ago - standards have tightened since then, particularly regarding fair use images.
 * The image of the crest has been replaced. NYCRuss   ☎  22:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Colony shouldn't be italicized, you should get a good copy edit for the intro (WP:GOCE).
 * I removed the italicization and got a good copy edit. The person performing the copy edit re- italicized the word "colony" "group". Is this the beginning of an italicization war?  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Moving the emphasis from the word colony to the word group looks better to me, but grammar isn't my forte which is why I recommended getting a good copy edit.
 * The column widths vary from section to section, see about making this fixed.
 * Should be done by the end of the weekend. NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Endash should be used between dates.
 * I thought that endashes were being used. If not, please point out an example of where a fix is needed.  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I went through and fixed the ones I saw.
 * Thanks! NYCRuss   ☎  22:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Headers need to be fixed per WP:HEAD ("Journalism and media", not "Journalism and Media")
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:CREDENTIAL for the names in military service.
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also some of the names redirect - fixing the credentials above will help with most of this I suspect but otherwise you might want to fix the sortname template like so Robert Wadsworth Lowry
 * Mostly fixed. Some of the redirects go to non-bio pages, as there are no bios for the individuals on Wikipedia at this time.  Is that OK, or should the links be removed?  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's ok for now but if you want to take it through FLC you're probably going to have to argue for inclusion if you don't plan on making articles.
 * Do you mean inclusion of the redirect, or inclusion of the person being listed without a Wikipedia bio article? NYCRuss   ☎  20:50, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The latter. Per WP:WIAFL redlinks are allowed (Visual appeal. It makes suitable use of text layout, formatting, tables, and colour; and a minimal proportion of items are redlinked.) it does not say what proportion can be red linked and I am assuming that redirects will be treated as a redlink if noticed.
 * I'll either remove those without the Wikipedia standard of notability or create articles. Might just be stubs, but they will be sourced. All redirects, that I can find, will be eliminated by the end of this weekend.  BTW, are there any tools for locating redirects?  NYCRuss   ☎  22:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Stubs are good. This highlights redirects User:Dschwen/HighlightRedirects.
 * All men listed now have their own article, even if some are stubs. NYCRuss   ☎  11:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For Members of the United States Congress and others spell out the state name rather than abbreviating it.
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Using WP:CITESHORT would be beneficial.
 * What pages that use shortened footnotes are good examples? NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Recent FA Mary Rose uses CITESHORT, current FLC recently promoted FL List of Washington & Jefferson College alumni uses it as well.
 * This should get done this weekend. Do you think that a shortened footnote for the fraternity directories that reads "Grand Catalogue (1985) p.38" would be acceptable?  NYCRuss   ☎  22:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be perfect (just add a space between p. and the number). --ImGz ( t/c ) 22:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I converted everything using the ,    and    templates.  NYCRuss   ☎  20:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Under the headings you have descriptions like "Members have served in the following positions with the U.S. government: President of the United States, Attorney General, Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of Commerce, Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of the Army (2), Postmaster General, Director of the Peace Corps (2), FDIC Chairman, and United States Ambassador (7)" having these are rather superfluous. If I've made it that far down I'm already reading the list and don't need a summary right above that particular section. However I would incorporate these into the lead check out List of University of Central Florida alumni, List of United States Military Academy alumni (academics), and List of alumni of Jesus College, Oxford: Law and government for recent FA's and how they summarize some of the alumni in the lead.
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You might want to consider condensing Original Chapter (chapter should be lowercase btw) and Original Chapter Host Institution. (eg. Pennsylvania Kappa)
 * Since the column widths will be fixed, this is needed to free up space. This should be done by the end of this weekend.  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The hatnote isn't needed. It's unlikely that somebody would end up at that article when searching for the Phi Kappa Psi article and if they did you have the article linked on the first sentence.
 * Fixed NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The list is looking good so far and a lot of this is just cosmetic work that I am seeing initially. I'll go through it again once you've addressed these issues. --ImGz ( t/c ) 15:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You should probably add Dynamic list to the article. Anyway I'll go through the article again sometime tonight or tomorrow for more suggestions. --ImGz ( t/c ) 20:26, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I meant to add more yesterday but my day was a bit nutty.
 * We all have those days :) NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Watch for stray punctuation at the end of the notability descriptions.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hadley, Tulloss - I would remove the comma between the school and the date range.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wilson and several others throughout the entire list - I would use the full date range (1913–1921 not 1913–21).
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jackson Turner - capitalized use of president for consistency.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Astin - Actor is such a short notability description, has he acted in anything worth mentioning?
 * Of course he has, and his entry is now expanded. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Walker - Clueless needs to be italicized.
 * Done. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aiello - Capitalize broadcast, also since that's the only station listed I would replace the comma with "at".
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Drantch - Spell out Virginia.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Crane - Which cartoon?
 * Now mentioned. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Huck - I'd change this to say 'Former chairman..' rather than having (retired) at the end.
 * Huck that! J/K, it is fixed.  NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * McMahan - Co-Founded should be Co-founded.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Miles - Capitalize serves, suggest using 'Former chief executive'.
 * Fixed. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yang - I don't believe Yahoo! needs to be italicized.
 * No longer italicized. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wilson - I would clarify that he was the President of the United States.
 * Clarified. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Barr - Use 1968–1969, I would changed "U.S. Representative (Indiana) (1959–1961)" to "U.S. Representative from Indiana (1959–1961)" same goes for each subsequent use of this format.
 * I'll add the "from" along with a link to the specific state congressional delegation over the weekend. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. NYCRuss   ☎  14:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Watson - Spell out Indiana.
 * I missed that one! It is now fixed.  NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sennewald - Link 4 star general?
 * I'll flesh out his notability sometime before the end of the weekend. 4 stars probably does not need to be mentioned.  The proper title of "General" in the U.S. means 4 stars.  Less than that is a Lt. Gen., Maj. Gen. or Brig. Gen.
 * Gen. Sennewald now has a better statement of notability. NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Merritt - Capitalize dean.
 * Done. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Dakich - Capitalize former.
 * Capitalized. NYCRuss   ☎  23:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

--ImGz ( t/c ) 18:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Everything is looking good. GrapedApe brought up most of the issues that were going to be my third round of critiques. Just a few more things I can see:
 * Book references should spell out Company so it's not "Co.." formatted.
 * Fixed! NYCRuss   ☎  20:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You have several entries duplicated (Wilson, Bloomberg, Palmer, etc). This list is pretty large so you might want to pick the category the person is better known for and delete the duplicates, but it's up to you and I'm not sure how FLC handles duplicate entries so it might be perfectly fine.
 * Yeah, we'll see what they say. If I have to reduce to one entry, I'll do it. NYCRuss   ☎  20:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Overall it's quite a list and great work on it! --ImGz ( t/c ) 19:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! You've been a great help!  NYCRuss   ☎  20:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * I am a little worried about comprehensiveness (completeness) and the bounds of this list. To be complete as per current title, the list needs 112,796 members listed, which is not feasible. If the List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers covers only notable members, how do you decide who is notable and who is not (and to be dropped)?
 * About a literal interpretation of the title, I agree that it is not accurate. However, this seems to be the standard way to title such pages on Wikipedia.  I could be wrong, but addressing this seems more like a policy issue than an issue with this page as things stand.  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Concerning notability, I'm not sure that I have an answer. The best solution seems to me to mirror Wikipedia's standards for notability as it relates to the creation of biographical pages.  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The major reference used the Grand Catalogue's last edition is dated 1997. What about members after that?
 * 1997 is the most recent edition in my apartment. They are usually revised about twice a decade, and a new edition was released last year.  In addition, the Fraternity's magazine can be used to cite notable members.  NYCRuss   ☎  18:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

-- Redtigerxyz Talk 07:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * User:GrapedApe's Comments and Suggestions
 * I'm not sure everyone knows what a "colony" is when you mention it in the opening sentence. Can you link that to some definition somewhere, or cut it?
 * Definition is linked. NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The lead seems to have a lot of roundabout mentions of a single individual ("one of the few U.S. Presidents to win a Nobel Peace Prize"/"Father of the U.S. Air Force" /"a Heisman Trophy winner"/"Father of College Basketball Coaching"/"a Major League Baseball Commissioner." If it's a single person, just say that person's name. Like "U.S. President Woodrow Wilson" or "Billy Mitchell, Father of the U.S. Air Force." Reading the lead shouldn't be a guessing game.
 * Done. NYCRuss   ☎  22:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In the Lead: "The arts have seen"/"The business world has seen"/"The world of law has seen." Try to vary the sentence construction a bit.
 * I reworked this, but I'm not sure if I went far enough. NYCRuss   ☎  22:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, clarify whether it is a social fraternity or a service fraternity. I think most Americans would know that there aren't any women members, but you might want to note that.
 * That's already mentioned in the first sentence. Does more need to be written?  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the entire "On being a Phi Psi" section should but cut. 1) The Creed of Phi Psi is presumably copyrighted, and Wikipedia can only accept public domain works. In articles, it is OK to quote things, but not the entire creed 2) It's inclusion approaches "boosterism" and might violate the rule of neutrality 3) It creates a lot of blank space in the article. 4) Dud's quote doesn't really add anything to the article.
 * Agreed. It is cut.  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Cut any alumni with redklinks. Or else create articles for them.
 * That's the current plan. I cut a bunch.  I still have six redirects left that I believe can be turned into at least sourced out bio stubs quickly.  One of them, Burton Y. Berry, already has an article in the German Wikipedia.  Any idea how we can get that translated into English?  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No more redlinks, and no redirects for the names of the alumni. NYCRuss   ☎  11:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the "name" column could stand to be a bit bigger.
 * I've been struggling with that, but I did widen it tonight from 78px to 90px. NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the "Original Chapter" column should note the college, rather than the chapter's greek letter designation. For most people, "Pennsylvania Beta" doesn't mean anything, and you have to hover over the link to learn what school that was.
 * I had separate columns for the chapter and host institution. At ImGz's suggestion, I consolidated these, as it was necessary to do so after the widths were fixed so that all of the table align.  The advantage to using the chapter name is that it tends to occupy less column space, and issues over host institution name changes, whether from mergers (W&J), or just straight changes (Gettysburg College was Pennsylvania College, George Washington University was Columbian College), are avoided.  The advantage to the host institution, of course, is that it is less cryptic.  There is also the issue that WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities specifies the use of the chapter name, and that the two FLs use chapter name.  I don't mind changing to the host institution, but I'd rather have the issue settled before any more changes are done.  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The columns for "Theology" don't match up.
 * Please double check this, as it looks fine to me. I created that section today, and initially screwed up the formatting.  You might have looked at it during the few minutes when things were askew.  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The notability column there is about a 2/3rd the width of the other ones.--GrapedApe (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing that. What browser are you using?  NYCRuss   ☎  01:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the image of Jefferson College should be in the lead, rather than a picture of Wilson in Congress. Tha picture of Congress seems to imply (unintentionally) that "Congress is dominated by Phi Psis." There are a good many Phi Psis in Congress, but that's not supposed to be the point of lead images. Especially since the purported focus of the image, Wilson, is barely visible.
 * Agreed, although I'm not crazy about the Jefferson College picture for this page because it is a building and this list page is about people. I need to get a picture from my fraternity, and figure out how to get it on without violating Wikipedia's rules.  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What about this one:File:Greek Swingout 1922 at W&J College.jpg? As a bonus, it's a picture from the founding institution.--GrapedApe (talk) 03:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a very cool picture, although not exactly what I had in mind for this page. I think that I'm going to scan a picture of Phi Kappa Psi's founders from a 1902 book and upload it by the end of this coming weekend.  NYCRuss   ☎  11:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I would change "U.S. Representative (Indiana)" to "U.S. Representative from Indiana." I just think it looks better.
 * This is done, although the entire title is now linked to the state delegation list. NYCRuss   ☎  14:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The image File:Rcrane.gif is fair use and shouldn't appear in this list.
 * Removed. NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Overall a really good job. I was skeptical about whether this could be done well, and you did it very well! I have not checked the notability language or the citations. (Full disclosure: I was a member of a different fraternity).--GrapedApe (talk) 16:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'll address the other points that you made over the weekend.  NYCRuss   ☎  00:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)