Wikipedia:Peer review/London Philharmonic Orchestra/archive1

London Philharmonic Orchestra
This peer review discussion has been closed.. I have been working my way through the articles on the London orchestras, getting them up to GA level, and the LPO is my fourth such effort, with only the Philharmonia to go. As ever, all comments and suggestions on style, prose, proportion, sourcing, images or indeed anything else will be most welcome. –  Tim riley  talk    16:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Cg2p0B0u8m
A very quick comment before I read it properly. I know that orchestras look rather similar, but there is no photo of the LPO on its page. Lots of conductors, but no orchestra. I am sure you have looked already, but thought I would ask. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That's it in a nutshell. There are plenty of pictures of the players from many decades, but nothing I can find that is public domain, and I don't think fair use would be an acceptable plea for a body of 88 players.  Tim riley  talk    12:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 3rd para of the introduction - "south bank of the Thames" - I think it is more significant that it is one of the two leading concert halls in London.
 * I've fudged this a bit: writing during the Prom season I can't in conscience ignore the Albert Hall, much as I'd like to.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A general point, and trying to get away from conductors; you do mention some eminent original members of the orchestra, but hardly any others after that. I know that Malcolm Arnold was a trumpeter for them for a bit, and I'm sure there must have been a leader or two who was well-known.
 * Excellent point. Nobody leaps to mind, but I'll do a bit of research and add anyone I can find.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Failure, I'm afraid. The more famous instrumentalists seem to have gravitated to the other orchestras from the 1950s onwards. Looking at my archive of programmes from the 1970s to date I can't find one LPO player who has a WP article. Happy to be proved wrong, naturally.  Tim riley  talk    09:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * again general - is there somewhere a list of notable premieres, assuming they gave major premieres?
 * Another good point, also needing research, which it will be a pleasure to do.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, not much joy. There's the odd Henze piece, but I can't see any really famous new works launched by the LPO.  Tim riley  talk    09:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Should it be mentioned that the orchestra appeared on TV, or is that too common?
 * I don't think the LPO has appeared on TV all that often. In the LSO article I mentioned BBC's "André Previn's Music Night" series, but the LPO has had nothing on that scale.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Under 'Early Years' the last paragraph mentions a 1936 tour of Nazi Germany. Was this their first overseas tour, and does it need pointing out?
 * It wasn't. Their first overseas engagement was in Brussels in June 1935, but as it was just two concerts I haven't thought it needed mentioning. Quite happy to include it if you disagree.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In '60s and 70s' Solti is first mentioned as Solti, then three paragraphs on as Sir Georg Solti...
 * Corrected.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In the 2nd para of 80s and 90s, is there a word missing in the middle: "In 1984 LPO and the Philharmonia began...." ?
 * There was indeed: now amended.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Near the end of the 80s and 90s Roslavets is mentioned but I think make it stronger to mention other obscure composers they played.
 * I'll check in the Pirouet book and see if others are named. I know the LPO played music by Jonathan Lloyd, Honegger and Birtwistle      in this period, which I don't imagine caused queues at the box-office, but I'll need to check if these works were played at the Southbank Centre's behest.   Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand in '21st century' "probably having been drilled to a fare-thee-well under Masur".
 * Not a phrase I'd run across either. The writer is an American critic, and I take the phrase to be an American one. I think from the context it is clear that it is meant to convey what an English critic might phrase as "drilled within an inch of their lives".  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There seem to be two Philip Stuart references but only one appears in the Sources.
 * One of them is an online source, and it is my practice to include such sources in the references, with the "Sources" section listing printed books. (A bit illogical now I think about it, but I've been doing it for years.) The online Stuart work is liked at ref 101.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

But apart from my caveat about the photos and maybe these, it is as always from you a very nice article, from which I learnt a lot. Thank you. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Some really good points in there! Thank you, mon Général (as your username always makes me think of Général Boum in La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein). I shall enjoy working through them over the weekend. –  Tim riley  talk    20:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your replies. Of course the username is a mistake, I got muddled with names and passwords when setting up my account, but it's too late to do anything now. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case I shall feel at liberty to continue thinking of you as Général Boum. Excellent!  Tim riley  talk    19:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Gosh! You have homed in on some excellent points there, and I'll look forward to going to the British Library again to do them justice. Thank you so much.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Alfietucker
This is a very engaging and readable article which I think covers most of the salient points well. Just a few details I've picked up on a read-through:


 * Lead
 * "it secured a valuable engagement to play in the opera house during the summer months, at the Glyndebourne Festival from 1964." – I think this would be much clearer ("opera house" tends to make me think instinctively of the Royal Opera House) if worded "from 1964 it secured a valuable engagement to play in the Glyndebourne Festival opera house during the summer months."
 * "and makes national and international tours." – better, I think, "and tours nationally and internationally."
 * Yes to both. Will do.  Tim riley  talk    19:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * History: Background
 * "Sargent's patrons, the Courtauld family" – by this, do we mean Elizabeth Courtauld? In any case, I wonder whether we should provide a wikilink to Courtauld, though I realise there is no ideal article available at present to link to (plus, I realise you do link Samuel Courtauld in the following paragraph). Still, would it be legitimate to reword this earlier mention of Courtauld as follows: "Sargent's patron, Elizabeth Courtauld (wife of the industrialist and art collector Samuel Courtauld)"? Or, if allowed and possible, to link Courtauld family to "Category:Courtauld family"?
 * At some point during my sandbox revisions I linked "the Courtauld family" to Samuel neveu: can't think quite when or why I deleted the link and I'll be happy to put it back. I don't think I'll be charged with WP:OVERLINK if I also link later to the man himself.  Tim riley  talk    19:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1950s
 * "described by Kennedy as "gruelling"" – presumably this is Michael Kennedy: in any case, we should have his name in full here at its first appearance, and if it's Michael perhaps we should wikilink to his article. Also, shouldn't we have a reference for the Kennedy citation in the footnote which ends that sentence?
 * Aha! Circumstantial evidence of self-plagiarism, i.e. copying and pasting from my own contributions chez Sir Adrian. Serves me right. Shall adjust.  Tim riley  talk    19:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Any reason why Stravinsky's Firebird is not wikilinked?
 * Yes: incompetence. Shall remedy.  Tim riley  talk    19:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1960s and 70s
 * Haitink - the LPO's longest serving conductor, yet I don't see any mention of the repertoire he particularly conducted with them. Might something be said about his Shostakovich performances and recordings (also relevant to Vladimir Jurowski later)?
 * Done. Much improved thereby.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1980s and 90s
 * Tennstedt - though he is noted for his importance and rapport with the orchestra, we are told very little about what repertoire he particularly conducted the LPO in (only that he recorded Mahler 8, as far as I can see). Might we say a little more on that front?
 * Done, and ditto.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 21st century
 * "Jurowski had first conducted the LPO in 2001, making an immediate mark." What works did he conduct on that occasion? (Indeed, I think we could say more about what repertoire Jurowski has been particularly acclaimed for in conducting the LPO.)
 * Expanded.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Recordings
 * Could something be said about some of the LPO's opera recordings? For instance I think the first recording of Vaughan Williams's The Pilgrim's Progress (with Adrian Boult) and - the Shostakovich connection again - the landmark first recording of the original version of Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth under Rostropovich are worth mentioning.
 * Overview of opera recordings added, including the two you mention.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * References
 * The "discography of the LPO published in 1997" by Philip Stuart, mentioned in "Recordings", appears to be one of the article's sources: e.g. ref 101 which refers to the LPO/Boult recordings for Lyrita and EMI. Yet it's not listed in Sources – could this be added?
 * An oversight, now rectified.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's all from me for now, but if I spot anything else I'll report back. Alfietucker (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I call that a helpful review! Any amount of good stuff there, all addressed, I hope. Thank you very much.  Tim riley  talk    17:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * My pleasure - and you've certainly addressed all the points I raised. A very enjoyable article. btw, I wonder if there may be enough material to create a little article on Elizabeth Courtauld some day (something I could think of tackling, unless you're interested?). Alfietucker (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Cliftonian's thoughts
Will jot thoughts as I go through. Will start with body and come back to lead at the end.

Background


 * We have the footnote explaining what the deputy system is, but I think it may be advisable to give a few words in the body itself on what it was. Perhaps a variant on the second sentence presently in the footnote, in between two emdashes, with the thus shortened footnote immediately after?
 * Redrawn Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * When I was at school our music hall was the Adrian Boult building.
 * Was it, indeed! Boult was at Westminster in the first decade of the 20th century. His article is mostly my work, and I shall get hold of a citation and add that fact to his "Honours and memorials" section, alongside the Adrian Boult Hall in Birmingham.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Early years


 * "thirteen other venues in England, Ireland and Scotland" didn't they ever go to Wales?
 * It seems not.

War and post-war years


 * "Many of the players' instruments were lost when the Queen's Hall was destroyed by German bombing in May 1941; and an appeal was broadcast by the BBC, the response to which was enormous, with instruments donated by the public enabling the orchestra to continue." I don't think we need "and" after the semi-colon.
 * Indeed not; blitzed.

1950s


 * We wikilink Kennedy twice.
 * Good grief! One can never proof read one's own writing: one sees what one thinks one has written. Now corrected.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

1960s and 70s


 * It may be good to make clear for the uninitiated that Glyndebourne is outside London, in Sussex. (I know, I went there once.)
 * We say "in Pirouet's words", then don't actually quote him word-for-word. Perhaps rephrase? ("in Pirouet's view", for example)
 * Both done.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

1980s and 90s


 * I have split a long paragraph here

21st century and Recordings look good to me.

Very well done to all concerned on a fine and informative read. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  21:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. feel like a total philistine as it has just occurred to me that I have reviewed an article on an orchestra while blasting drum and bass. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  21:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for that review. The article is distinctly improved after it, I think.  Tim riley  talk    09:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems I forgot to do the lead, though! Argh! So I'll do it now.

Lead


 * At the end of the second paragraph we use "founded" twice in quick succession
 * "From 1995 the residency has been jointly held" perhaps "Since 1995"?
 * The lead seems a little short to me. Here are some ideas for things that might be good to add:
 * In the last paragraph, where we mention the conductors, maybe add "Guest conductors have included" and put some of the more major ones.
 * We don't mention anything at all in the lead about its recordings. Maybe, after we mention the conductors, name-drop some of the opera recordings and film scores (Lawrence of Arabia and The Lord of the Rings come to mind).

Hope this helps, sorry about not doing this before. (now feel doubly philistine!) —  Cliftonian   (talk)  11:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It most certainly does help and Philistine be blowed! All these points now addressed, satisfactorily I hope. I can't find anything online about the Adrian Boult building at Westminster, which is rather a pity (not for this article but for Sir Adrian's).  Tim riley  talk    18:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The school magazine, The Elizabethan, mentions the Adrian Boult building here on page 10. Also mentions my brother a few times in the cricket section. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  18:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Bless you, my lad! Now added to the Boult article. ("Breezy cameos", eh? Always good to watch, and I speak as one who in his youth sat through an opening innings by Chris Tavare and Geoffrey Boycott so plodding that every spectator temporarily lost the will to live. Good for your bro for smashing about a bit!)  Tim riley  talk    19:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Cassianto comments

 * "All except the last of these ensembles were essentially ad hoc ensembles" -- Ensembles/ensembles
 * "...and none approached the excellence of the best continental and American orchestras." -- POV? I know this is a build up of the next sentence or two, but I'm sure it could be tweaked to read less POVVY : "All except the last of these were essentially ad hoc ensembles, with little continuity of personnnel; an example of the latter orchestras excellence came in 1927 when the Berlin Philharmonic, under Wilhelm Furtwängler, gave two concerts at the Queen's Hall." possibly?
 * The sources are unanimous on this, and I think it will be better to address your very sound point about the POV tone by citing a cartload of contemporary and later sources. Shall rummage and add.  Tim riley  talk    16:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

War and post-war years
 * "Beecham was advised by his doctors to take a year's complete break from music" -- as opposed to a partial break? Surely a break is as long as one wants it to be?
 * True. Pruned.  Tim riley  talk    16:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Note 3 is missing a closing ref.
 * Thank you for that: now attended to.

Other than the formatting issues with the refs (which I have now fixed), that is it! Top job Tim, let me know when you go to FAC! Cassianto talk 11:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this: all grist to the Riley mill, not least your quiet amendment of my mistakes with the formatting of references. I'm not aiming at FAC. My tour d'horizon of the London orchestras is firmly aimed at GA level. One could write an FA quality article on any or all of the five orchestras, but I'm not willing to do the very considerable research that it would need. GA will do me nicely, and with your help and that of your fellow peer reviewers I hope to get this one there. –  Tim riley  talk    16:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

BB comments
I'm back in time to have a late run at this. A great subject, full of interest throughout.
 * Lead


 * Minor nitpick: it jars slightly to read consecutive sentences beginning "After the outbreak of war" and "After the war"
 * Agreed.  Tim riley  talk  
 * "By the 1960s the LPO had gradually regained its earlier standards..." I don't think "gradually" works in a sentence fixed at a point in time, i.e. the 1960s. I imagine the intended sense is that by the 1960s, through a gradual process over the previous two decades, the LPO had regained its former standard; suggest you simply remove "gradually".
 * Fine.  Tim riley  talk  
 * Incidentally, the previous paragraph does not refer to a fall in the LPO's standards, merely to a change of ownership and to increased competition, so it may be advisable to briefly say when/why standards fell.
 * Whoops! Will do.  Tim riley  talk  
 * Background


 * "All except the last of these ensembles were essentially ad hoc ensembles": Repetition, tut tut
 * Ahem! Will amend.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * War and post-war years 


 * "Among the conductors making guest appearances in this period..." – perhaps define "in this period" more specifically as "the immediate postwar years"
 * Will do.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "After seven years with no principal conductor, the orchestra engaged the Dutch conductor..." – another close repetition, rephrase if possible
 * Yes.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Does Martinon deserve to be singled out from the list of postwar guest conductors? (I remember him only as the conductor of Deryck Cooke's version of Mahler's 10th, many years later).
 * Good point. I inherited this sentence. Will delete.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 1950s


 * I think we should say "mezzo-soprano" rather than the informal "mezzo"
 * Right ho.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "In 1952, the LPO negotiated a five-year contract with Decca Records, which was unusually rewarding for the orchestra..." Lose the comma after "Decca Records" to preserve your meaning (it was the terms of the contract that were unusually rewarding).
 * Will redraw. That rather than which would be better here, it occurs to me.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 1960s and 70s


 * Is it possible to avoid "Pritchard. Pritchard"?
 * It is and I shall.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Barenboim should be linked at first mention (he is at second, later)
 * Indeed, and he needs his first name at first mention. It shall be done.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 1980s and 90s


 * Re RFH: "The two orchestras were interested in making a counter-proposal for a joint residency, but the matter was not resolved until 1995". This is a bit tantalising – perhaps indicate the solution here, rather than reserving it for later. Precise chornology is not always necssary.
 * I'll ponder and redraw if I can.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "...in 1995 the two orchestras agreed to share the residency at the Festival Hall". From what you've previously written, I gathered that the two orchestras had years earlier proposed a shared residency, but that the Arts Council had pressed for a single resident orchestra. Did the Arts Council simply withdraw its proposal?
 * Just so.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Recordings


 * Does Mahler's Eighth have to be the "Symphony of a Thousand", a name devised as a publicity gimmick and not sanctioned by Mahler?
 * I'll amend to the Authorised Version.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing remotely problematic here, I think, and I look forward to the article's onward progress. Brianboulton (talk) 13:47, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent points: thank you very much, BB.  Tim riley  talk    08:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm closing the review now. Warm thanks to everyone who contributed, above.  Tim riley  talk    09:13, 2 October 2014 (UTC)