Wikipedia:Peer review/Love, Loss, and What I Wore/archive1

Love, Loss, and What I Wore
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because the article needs feedback.

Thanks, TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:30, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Tony, this is your second PR nom for 20 July. I'll treat this as for 21 July, but please note that PR rules stipulate one nom per day. Thanks Brianboulton (talk) 10:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Comments by H1nkles

I'm not sure of your ultimate goal for the article so I'll aim at GA and hope that's correct.

Lead
 * I don't think the lead fully summarizes all aspects of the article namely the themes of the play (you talk about what the play does but not really about the themes of the play, I think there's a difference - see below), and what the play was originally intended to benefit.
 * Refs aren't necessary in the lead assuming they are included in the body of the article. Leave them if you wish it's not a hard and fast rule as I'm sure you're aware.
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

History
 * The writing here is rough but meets GA standards. If this were prepping for FA I'd have more to say regarding the writing but I assume that isn't the plan for now.
 * Correct.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't look over this sentence though, "Chenoweth was replaced in the last of the first three 4-week runs by Finneran." "the last of the first", when you think about it you can get it but there has to be a better way to put it.
 * How is it now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's fine, I understand what you're saying and I can't think of a better way to say it so absent a better suggestion it looks good. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Are there stats for how much was raised for Dress of Success?
 * I have not seen any, but it continues to sponsor the organization.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Bummer that would be a nice piece to add. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Roth was the producer and Alexander Fraser was the co-producer." Who is Roth?  I see "Daryl Roth" later on but the first mention of the name should be both first and last, with last name used after that.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Development
 * More could be added here.
 * Is there info on inspiration for the play?
 * Why did the Ephrons take it on?
 * Is there information on why the particular actors were chosen?
 * I think the point of the rotating cast is that particular actors is not important.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that the production is very minimalist but I think more on the development than just what the monolgues were based on is warranted. Why did the Ephrons add four more characters beyond the single character in Beckerman's book.


 * Since the play revolves around clothing, what were the costumes? What significance do they bear on the play?
 * The article says that they were all dressed in black and discribes the play as miniimalist.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:42, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Images are decorative, which I don't have a problem with per se. It would be better if more topical images could be found.
 * If you are asking about images of the performance, I would love to add some if they were available. I may ask around when the show comes here to Chicago, but make no promises.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem I don't spend money on WP, I figure my time is enough. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Themes
 * Are there some central themes to the play? What I mean is this section talks about the contents of the monologues and the women's memories but not about themes like love, loss, self-esteem, hope, I don't know I'm just throwing things out there since I've never seen the play.  I like the quote about the purse, that applies to this section but the rest isn't really themes it's content that should reveal the theme.  I think taking that extra step to reveal the themes will improve this section.
 * I am not a literature guy. I could use some help here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * BTW I see some themes in the first couple of sentences in the Plot section, that should be moved up here.
 * Again, if you could help me out by saying which things you feel are themes, that would be helpful.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not having any experience with this play I'll go by what I read here and the sources; some of the themes I can see are sadness, self-esteem, regret, control. I've reread the Theme section and it's a lot better, more on theme and less on plot elements.  I think it's good enough for GA passage.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Plot
 * What does the info about who originated the Gingy role have to do with the plot? Also the fact that Daly originated the role in NY is duplicated from a sentence in the History section.  Not necessary here.
 * Rearranged.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:23, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Beckerman's memoir takes as its departure the clothing worn at pivotal times of her life (and by O'Donnell and the author's other friends)..." I thought O'Donnell was a friend of the Ephrons not Beckerman. Check facts here against info in the Development section.
 * I don't understand the issue here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * From the Development section: "The Ephron's weaved together a collection of derivatives from the book with recollections of friends, including O'Donnell." From the Theme (previously Plot) section: "Beckerman's memoir takes as its departure the clothing worn at pivotal times of her life (and by O'Donnell and the author's other friends) and serves as the foundation for the show." Am I miss reading something?  It seems like the two sentences are saying O'Donnell was friends to both the Ephrons and Beckerman?  Is this the case?
 * Fixed now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:31, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like the first para in the Plot section fits better in other sections including the Theme and Development sections. It does nothing really to illuminate the plot IMO.
 * Moved.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "One character serves as the vixen, another plays a vulnerable gang member from Chicago, a third portrays a brave cancer patient, and the last serves as a mature woman pierced by vivid memories.[2] A character named Heather..." Which one is Heather?  Is she the vixen, gang member etc?  the writing almost makes it sound like she's another character beyond those already described.
 * How is it now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Better, it would help to identify which character Heather is, if that isn't available then it's fine as is. H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "A character named Heather chooses conservative "think" shoes over high heels in her youth, but at a later stage in life shows a preference for high heels.[11] The gang member likes insignias that are prominent on sweaters and their creator." Why did you pick these particular snippets to highlight?  What is the significance of these two sentences?  There's no tie in with the rest of the play.  Also I'm confused by the phrase, "insignias that are prominent on sweaters and their creator".  I don't get what that means.  Maybe I'm just dense.
 * These are two notable stories according to the sources. I don't know how they tie in to the broader work.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what you want me to clarify about the insignias. The source is clear.  You can check it out there and maybe suggest how I might make it more clear.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Among the 28 stories, the other notable ones are one about the influence of Madonna..." Not good writing here, perhaps "other notable tales include one about..."  Can you vary your terminology from using the term "one" repeatedly?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. one is used here to facilitate parallel structure grammatically.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The para about the NYT noting three particularly poignent stories. What was emotional about them?  What messages were conveyed?  Also there's a fourth story in the para, which is counterintuitive to the subject sentence that says three stories were particularly emotional.
 * The source does not really provide what you are looking for. I have reedited the paragraph to accommodate the fourth story.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok so several of the stories are mentioned with a blurb describing what they are about, my question is how does it all tie together? Or does it all tie together?  Where is the plot moving?  How does the play conclude?  This isn't spelled out here and I think it should.
 * I am not working from a script. I can not tell you how it ends or fits together. If I am really lucky maybe I will get to see the show while it is here in Chicago.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Critical reaction
 * You link purse here, if you think it should be linked then link it in the first mention of it rather than here per WP:LINK.
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I see two brief sentences that provide a negative reaction. Were there other negative opinions?  That would give this section more balance.

Overall
 * It's a fine succinct article that is missing some key features, which I've noted above.
 * I note that it may be difficult to find reliable sourcing for some of what I've suggested here. I hope you are successful in finding some that will work.  Keep in mind the sourcing requirements in the GA criteria.  No where is there a demand that every sentence and every fact be referenced.  I'm a stickler for references don't get me wrong but the GA criteria are pretty clear on what should be referenced to meet the standards.  Just a thought.  Best of luck to you.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 23:12, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you have an opinion on Love,_Loss,_and_What_I_Wore. Should that content be removed? I was thinking it should be WP:PRESERVEd. Is it really trivia?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed this list, it strikes me as a bit too detailed and may go beyond WP:SS. But it's a judgment call, I think an argument could be made for inclusion.  Watch WP:LIST as well, not sure how it could be made into prose but since it is one of the MOS items listed in the GA Criteria I figured I'd mention it.
 * If you don't want to make a call one way or another, I'll let the GAC reviewer decide.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As a peer reviewer I don't think it's my call to make. See what the GAC reviewer says, when I review GA noms I look for a cogent argument from the nominating editor that stays w/in the confines of the criteria, if one exists I usually go with it, since the criteria are pretty broad.  That's just me though and I'm sure you've had plenty of hard nosed GA reviewers who would disagree with my way of thinking.  IMO FAC is the place to be hard nosed and tight on the rules, GAC gives a lot more wiggle room.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 21:03, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I also saw an expansion tag in the background and development section but nothing in the talk page about this tag or the one in the cast history subsection. Do you know what more needs to be added to the background/development section?  I wonder how it can be expanded.  I may remove the tag after I give it some thought.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 16:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)