Wikipedia:Peer review/Mangalorean Catholics/archive2

Mangalorean Catholics

 * Previous peer review
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for August 2008.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for August 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because this article had failed GAN last time. Suggestions to elevate its status to GA will be very much helpful.

Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 12:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: Looks much improved since the last time I read it, but agree it is not yet to GA. Briefly, here are some suggestions for improvement. If you want more comments, please ask here. Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Biggest problem is the need for a copyedit - while WP:LOCE is dead (alas), you can ask for help at WP:PRV. I would try and address some of the other issues below first though.
 * The lead does not seem to summarize the article - for example, much of the culture section does not seem to be in the lead. See WP:LEAD Also provide context in several places, so in the lead the date of Tippu Sultan is not given
 * There are other places to provide context for the reader - I would expalin in some way who Joachim Alva is in the Infobox caption, for example. See WP:PCR
 * Some places need to have better logical flow / clearer connections made. For example, I am still not clear about the connection between the Pre-migration and Migration eras - I know much of the early records were lost, but what are the most common theories? Were there small numbers of catholics before the migration?
 * Footnotes need to be in order, so fix things like Out of the total 396,672 people living in Mangalore, the Christian population was 10,877.[13][25][26][15]
 * Perhaps add dates to Notable Mangalorean Catholics for context?

Comments by Kensplanet to Ruhrfisch's review Comments by Ravichandar
 * Biggest problem is the need for a copyedit - while WP:LOCE is dead (alas), you can ask for help at WP:PRV. I would try and address some of the other issues below first though.
 * User:Finetooth has copyedited the entire article.
 * Some places need to have better logical flow / clearer connections made. For example, I am still not clear about the connection between the Pre-migration and Migration eras - I know much of the early records were lost, but what are the most common theories? Were there small numbers of catholics before the migration?
 * Not sure what you are tring to say here. The pre-migration subsection recounts the details before the migration and the post after that. All records of an early existence of Christians in Mangalore were lost at the time of their deportation by Tippu Sultan in 1784. Hence, it is unknown when exactly Christianity was introduced in Mangalore, but it is possible that Syrian Christians, who were converted to Christianity by St Thomas in 52 CE, settled in Mangalore as they did in Kerala, a region south of Mangalore- These sentences clearly state the common theories. And later on, due to weak Portuguese evangelization, there were Catholics before migration.
 * Reads better now - thanks, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article)
 * I have given a short review for the Roman Catholic Church article. (Peer review/Roman Catholic Church/archive3) Kensplanet (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I wish to appreciate the excellent work that has been put forth towards the improvement of the article. The maps on population distribution, migration, etc. are really good. Others might be having different views, but I've jotted down what I feel


 * The section on history is larger when compared to other sections. I wouldn't say disproportionate for if I did I would be exaggerating things. Anyhow, I feel that the section is comparitively bigger.


 * Please add more pictures of Mangalorean Catholics. (A Mangalorean Catholic wedding photo, or some prominent member of the community) The only image of a Mangalorean Catholic appears to be in the infobox.

Thanks- Ravichandar My coffee shop 23:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply by Kensplanet to Ravichandar's review
 * The section on history is larger when compared to other sections. I wouldn't say disproportionate for if I did I would be exaggerating things. Anyhow, I feel that the section is comparitively bigger.
 * Yes, I'll fix that. History and Culture sections should be huge for ethnic group articles.


 * Please add more pictures of Mangalorean Catholics. (A Mangalorean Catholic wedding photo, or some prominent member of the community) The only image of a Mangalorean Catholic appears to be in the infobox.
 * I would really love to If I had pictures. Currently, I don't have any pics. Even the Infobox pic is not free.
 * Well, I'll check if I could find any public domain images. In the meantime, if you find time, do pay a visit to Peer review/Iyer/archive1 and give your suggestions.:-) Thanks- Ravichandar My coffee shop 04:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Dineshkannambadi comments The lead, IMO, sould contain only info about their migration from Goa, culture, language, cuisine, customs, demographic distribution etc. The following sentences seem out of place.
 * The sentence in the lead, Portuguese shipping arrived in Mangalore in 1526, and Catholic missionary activities began around 1534... suddently takes the reader away from the topic of Mangalorean Catholics. Seems the sentence belongs elsewhere, in the history section perhaps?
 * The sentence about the 15 year imprisonment of Catholics by Tippu also should not be in the lead, but rather only in the history section, despite its historical importance to the Mangalore Catholics.
 * The sentence about their entering the record books for singing 40 hours, again, seems out of place and should be under society/music (or equivalent) subsection.

More later.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please clarify who Alan Machado Prabhu is.
 * Alan Machado Prabhu has written a book Sarasvati's Children: A History of the Mangalorean Christians. He has done a tremendous research on the history of Mangalorean Catholics there. Hence, his research is considered very much reliable. Anyway, I'll try to add more and more context to the text. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This sentence comes off as contradictory.  In 1534, Mangalore was placed under the ecclesiastic jurisdiction of the Bishop of Goa. Missionaries soon arrived and gained converts. The number of local converts in Mangalore slowly increased.[6] During the mid 15th century, the Portuguese were unsuccessful in gaining converts in Mangalore because of resistance from the Vijayanagara ruler..'. You may want to say the number of converts increased, although slowly, because of resistance from Vijayanagara rulers...
 * I think you are right. I'll modify it as soon as I touch that section. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There are some sentnces that are very lengthy. Please break up for better readability.
 * Try not to use too many "Thus", "Hence".
 * Thanks for the excellent suggestion. I'll run the prose through a good copyedit or contact an copyeditor. The article is still not ready for a GA. Kensplanet (talk) 15:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of "post migration era" section is totally uncited. Please provide book citations from reliable sources in this section. As the section mentions religious persecution, it will surely come under the scanner in later reviews. If the info is already available in the books by Natan, Bowring etc, just add more citations to the fist para.
 * The template in the lead says the population of Mangalore Catholics is some 350,000 thousand, but "Mangalore" is linked to Tulu Nadu and Mangalore itself has a population of less than 400,000. All this is very confusing to a non-Karnataka reader.
 * Throughout the article, the Mangalore term refers to Tulu Nadu. Some may be confused that Mangalore here refers to Mangalore City. But that is not so. It has already been clarified in the Ethnic identity section that the Mangalore which we are speaking of are the Dakshina Kannada and Udupi districts, and not Mangalore city alone. One suggestion is we can put Tulu Nadu instead of Mangalore there in the Infobox, but then Tulu Nadu has no official status. So its better to put Mangalore since it goes with the name Mangalorean Catholics. One more suggestion maybe let's put Dakshina Kannada and Udupi there, but then it would be difficult to find the no of Catholics for each district. So, a compromise has to be made inspite of the confusion. Kensplanet (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply by Kensplanet to Dineshkannambadi's review '''In case you would like me to peer review your article or any other article, then please do inform me. ''' Kensplanet (talk) 10:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for your excellent comments and observations.
 * The sentence in the lead, Portuguese shipping arrived in Mangalore in 1526, and Catholic missionary activities began around 1534... suddently takes the reader away from the topic of Mangalorean Catholics. Seems the sentence belongs elsewhere, in the history section perhaps?
 * Will remove it soon.
 * The sentence about the 15 year imprisonment of Catholics by Tippu also should not be in the lead, but rather only in the history section, despite its historical importance to the Mangalore Catholics.
 * Well, I don't find any reason why this sentence should not appear in the lead. Out of the 60,000 captured Christians, only 10,000 could make it out. A very significant point in their history. Anyway, why do you say so?
 * The topic suddenty jumps from their migration to persecuton by Tippu. If you could create a seperate small para which discusses their most cherished moment in history to date, then you could continue to add their most sorrowful memory also. I have read books too, which describe Tippu's cruelty towards Christians in coastal Karnataka and his entirely different attitude towards non-muslims in the Mysore region, perhaps a well played out political balance.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sadly, the community didn't have any cherised memory. Throughout history, they had to live in constant fear for their lives since they were Christians. Later on Tippu destroyed atleast 85% of the entire community. Anyway, I'll try to work on it. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The sentence about their entering the record books for singing 40 hours, again, seems out of place and should be under society/music (or equivalent) subsection.
 * Removed this sentence.