Wikipedia:Peer review/Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater/archive1

Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
This article has all the key areas videogame articles are expected to have, and references them extensively. Save for a copyedit and other minor issues, this article is, in my opinion, ready for an FAC. I'm requesting a peer review because it can't hurt to get a few outside opinions before running the gauntlet. -- Steel 14:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Lemme first just say this is fan-fucking-tasticly cited. Kudos. But you wanted critiques, so here ya go. I think that MGS3:S needs to be put back as its own article with a summary of the branch from the trunk article MGS3. I saw discussion of it on the talk page, but i think it's just too long. Secondly, like MGS2, there were many honorifics to other games/movies/etc to other areas in MGS3. Not really in a 'Trivia' section like way (look up in Locker X to see a almost nude poster, lol!!!1!), but maybe some big ones (eg James Bond) to show the depth of the game. Perhaps like MGS2's article, but not as long, an annotated 'Cast' section w/credits to voiceactors in english/japanese. A spoiler tag for the Characters/Story section (story section is too long by the way). A link directly to its game trailer somewhere, prominently placed. Also, given its very warm reception as a game, im guessing there are more Awards out there for it. This section should perhaps be a little more list like as well; one usually skims plaudits. If you have any other questions/comments use muh talk page. JoeSmack Talk 21:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just covered up some swear words in the above review. Aquaspoon 07:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just uncovered them again, Wikipedia is not censored for minors. We can fuck and shit as much as we like. -- Steel 10:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks much for the suggestions. I do, however, disagree with some of your points, but I'm happy to discuss them. The Subsistence section is, IMO, not that long. It's only a few paragraphs and is quite suited to the end of Snake Eater's article. Mentioning homages to other games is borderline original research, but the James Bond stuff may be worth mentioning in the development section, and I seem to remember reading something on that which can be used as a source. I'm not too big on that Cast section idea, but as a compromise we could have the voice actor in brackets the first time their character is mentioned in the article? Spoiler tags are only a style guideline (and a disputed one at that, there's a RfC on them somewhere) and it's obvious there are going to be spoilers in the story section. Compared with FFX or FFVII, the story isn't too long, though if there's anything you think is trivial and doesn't need a mention, then I'm all ears. A game trailer could well go in the external links section. Awards could probably be expanded, but should stay as prose, not a list. And thanks for the compliment about references, I single handedly referenced the entire article (I think there's only one ref that wasn't added by me). There's still some cite needed tags left to deal with though. -- Steel 22:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey rumor has it that others disagree with some of my points too. Don't sweat it. :) I'm pretty sure they shine on about homages to other games somewheres; i don't read dev diaries or anything regularly for MGS3, but somehow it got into my head. Your suggestion for adding voiceactors in brackets sounds lovely. I suppose spoiler tags aren't required...but do they look that ugly? Anyways, your discression. As per the story section length, i just think that John Q. Public (er, me so to speak) isn't really after the novel but the article. if you shaved two paragraphs it'd be perfect. In this way i think the MGS3:S should have its own article - it's actually 5 pargraphs with a subsection and two images. My thoughts were: if it's big enough to have its own article it should have its own article. I don't see that hurting the prose of MGS3, and i think 'Awards' makes a fitting conclusion. oh, and twas me who doubled the ref's into columns. it was a real lifesaver over at AIDS when we were working on making the article seem less lengthy; it would turn two pages of refs into one for you. JoeSmack Talk 06:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I still think Subsistence is better off in this article, and there was pretty much unanimous support for it on the talk page a while ago. As for the story, I actually think the current length is perfect, especially considering what it used to be like . We are writing an encyclopedia, after all, not a back cover blurb or brief synopsis. As I said, I seem to rememeber reading something about 1960s James Bond movies, so I'll hunt for that. I personally hate two column refs, they look ugly and only shorten the article when the refs are less than half the length of the page, which they're not (think about it). -- Steel 11:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is very well researched and thoroughly sourced. However, it does have some issues. To begin with, I want to emphasize that the article is going to need some very thorough copyediting before you try FAC. Now, some issues I noted:


 * The article makes no mention of the game's reliance on cut scenes. Whether in relation to the rest of the series, or in general, this is something that needs to be made note of. The lead would be perfect for this.
 * Noted, and will be dealt with. Not sure how this was overlooked. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Plot section is unevenly detailed—it is heavily detailed up until "After numerous encounters with the elite Ocelot Unit...", at which point it summarizes most of the game's events in a sentence or so. After this, it goes back into extremely high detail. Also, my memory might be failing me, but I believe Snake finds out about the Philosophers well before he returns to the facility, necessitating the moving of some information. Again, I can't be sure, but you should double check that with a reliable source.
 * Is this really an issue?. The detailed beginning and ends is because there's a lot of story that needs to be told in those sections. This is in contrast to the middle of the game where not an awful lot of story is told, despite Snake going through caves, forests and mountains during this period. I'll double check this philosophers business, you may be right. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A special limited edition CD was given away to those who preordered the Japanese version of Snake Eater. Several songs from the game's soundtrack were included on the CD, as well as additional camouflage for the main game and computer screensavers. - this might be covered in reference #32, but either way, it should be cited.
 * The next sentence continues listing what's in the pre-order package, and cites everything there. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He stated that the jungle setting is what both his development team, and the Metal Gear fans, wanted. However, he acknowledged that the elements of the jungle environment, such as the weather, landscape and wildlife, were features that would present problems and would have to be tackled during the game's development. - I am unsure whether or not this is cited through reference #34, but either way, both of these sentences could use citations.
 * See here and my comment below. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He did, however, acknowledge that the current trend for videogames is to use the 3D camera. - could use a citation.
 * See here and my comment below. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This battle of attrition can last for hours, and contrasts with other boss fights in which the enemy is right in front of the player and in view the whole time. - this contains some original research that necessitates the minor rewrite and citation of the sentence.
 * I think there's a source for this somewhere - will have to check. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The player has the ability to avoid this boss battle altogether by killing The End earlier in the game. - needs a source.
 * See here and my comment below. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * ...a distinctly Bondish vocal track... - original research. Needs rewriting to incorporate a reliable source.
 * Fair enough, I think there's a source somewhere. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He liked the song "Way To Fall" and chose it as an ending theme. - needs a source.
 * I think the majority of the second paragraph in Audio may have to go, unless there's an official translation of Kojima's blog around, which there probably isn't and may be hard to find if there is. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: I found his blog, but there looks to be quite a lot of entries. I'm quite happy to go through them all though if necessary. -- Steel 14:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of reception seems a bit POV to me—take, for example, "...with less of the "philosophical babble" present in Sons of Liberty." The use of quotation marks here look like scare quotes more than the direct quote of someone else, which suggests that the article is asserting this as fact. Also, "Although this is considerably lower than Metal Gear Solid 2, which has sold almost 5.6 million copies to date, fans were pleased to be playing as Naked Snake, who strongly resembles the series protagonist Solid Snake, after being disappointed by Raiden in most of MGS2," is written in a POV style. Clearly not every fan was disappointed, and not every fan liked the return to a Snake-style character, though it is written to suggest these things. Could be rewritten to something like "While this was considerably lower than Metal Gear Solid 2, which has sold nearly 5.6 million copies to date, many fans who were disappointed by playing as Raiden for the majority of MGS2 were pleased to be playing as Naked Snake, who strongly resembles the series protagonist Solid Snake." I didn't put a whole lot of thought into that one, so you should probably not just copy and paste it.
 * Fair enough. Will be dealt with. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * We've got two sources - one saying "after the poor reaction Raiden received in MGS2", the other saying that (paraphrased because I forget what it says exactly) "One of MGS2's major flaws was that Snake disappears an hour into the game". I'll rewrite it so it's closer to what the refs say. -- Steel 14:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As noted above, Awards could probably be expanded a bit.
 * Fair enough. Will be dealt with. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * *The external jump present in "(This website is now publicly available.)" needs to be converted into a citation.
 * Fair enough. Will be dealt with. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's all I can think of. Great work so far. JimmyBlackwing 13:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a quick reply for now, everything in the Development section is sourced. I just had a feeling someone would moan if I used the same source to reference three/four consecutive sentences with the same source. And yes, there are a few cite needed tags which need sorting out. I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with the "philosophical babble" issue (because it is a direct quote of the review cited at the end of that sentence), so it would be great if you could expand on that. -- Steel 13:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * [Edit conflict] I didn't word it very well to begin with, so here's a better explanation of what I meant:


 * "Fans, as well as some critics, who also found MGS2's lengthy dialogues and multitude of plot twists detrimental to the game experience[46] found MGS3's storyline a pleasing throwback to the original Metal Gear Solid, with less of the "philosophical babble" present in Sons of Liberty.[12]" The wording of this sentence makes it look like the quotation marks around "philosophical babble" are scare quotes, instead of indicating a direct quote from the source. An example of how this could be resolved would be something like "[source] found MGS2's lengthy dialogues and multitude of plot twists detrimental to the game experience. [source 2] called MGS3's storyline a 'pleasing throwback to the original Metal Gear Solid,' with 'less of the philosophical babble present in Sons of Liberty.'" Again, it's definitely not copy-and-paste material, but I hope that conveys the general idea of what I meant. JimmyBlackwing 14:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What if ref 12 was moved forward slightly so it's right after the quotation? -- Steel 14:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that I consider it, that would probably work, too. Go ahead and do that—it makes my proposed rewrite seem clumsy and unnecessary. JimmyBlackwing 14:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I'm aware of the article is in desperate need of a copyedit. I've asked a few people to run through it when they have time. -- Steel 14:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)