Wikipedia:Peer review/Michael Tippett/archive1

Michael Tippett
This peer review discussion has been closed. Tippett was generally linked with Benjamin Britten as one of Britain's leading composers of the second part of the 20th century. Since their respective deaths, Britten in 1976 and Tippett in 1998, Britten's  standing has remained high, while Tippett's has fallen (some might say "plummetted"). Tippett was much less naturally gifted than Britten He took ages to get going, and having established himself to a reasonable degree in one style, changed it to another with markedly less success. Much of his music is rarely performed; he remains best-known for a handful of still-popular works mainly from his earlier years, including the secular oratorio A Child of Our Time. He was warm character, much loved by his followers, many of whom believe that his time will come again. Your comments and suggestions will be gratefully received. Brianboulton (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * An interesting and well-crafted article on a figure of significance.


 * Lede
 * "who rose to prominence during and immediately after the Second World War." That being deemed enough to feature in the lede sentence, I am somewhat surprised to find nothing further on this subject in the lede as to the circumstances of same.
 * It is simply a summary of the chronology of his carer. Before the war he was barely known; he became much better known during the war, particularly after Child, and his profile continued to rise in the postwar years. I believe this is fully reflected in the prose. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Until the mid-to-late 1950s his music was broadly lyrical in character; this period was followed a change to a more astringent and experimental style." It's a fine point, but I'm not sure what "this period" means time wise, whether it is his career up to the mid to late 50s, or merely the mid to late 50s. In a way, it's a moot point as they terminate at the same time, but I would still advise clearing it up.
 * Tweaked
 * "although his stance remained leftwards and humanitarian" The "remained" troubles me somewhat as it clearly refers to his youthful flirtation with communism. It can be read to affirm that the Communist Party was humanitarian.  I have no strong views on the subject, but others do.
 * I've removed the phrase, to avoid possible misinterpretation. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Family background
 * "suffragette" I do not believe that is the favoured term these days. It would be interesting to know if it was before or after entering the bond of wedlock that Mrs. Tippett entered the bonds of a more material kind. Surely before she had children?
 * The sources refer to a "suffragette" rally; the term is not generally considered perjorative over here. Her imprisonment would almost certainly have been after 1906; there was very little militant suffragism before then. More likely 1912 or 1913 – I will dig for a bit more detail. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Childhood
 * "that refuted the existence of God." Did it? Perhaps a little less definite  "to refute the existence of God"
 * Tim has raised the same point. Kemp says "refute", but I have softened this to "challenged"
 * "His overtly expressed atheism" Presumably he said he was an atheist; perhaps also he sought to persuade others. I would say so directly.
 * He doesn't seem to have tried to persuade others. He expressed his atheism in various subversive ways, in particular by boycotting daily chapel, a heinous offence in such schools in those days. I may tweak the wording a bit. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I would make clear Tibbett's age at suitable intervals. Unless you've memorised his birth year, it can be difficult to associate events with his age.
 * This has been done.
 * Friendships etc.
 * "his consciousness was raised" This seems unduly abstract.
 * Simplified a bit.
 * "Both works proved hugely successful" Financially? Critically? People whistling it? I note at the end of the section he's still seeking to be recognised as a musical contributor.
 * "Hugely successful" in local terms, i.e. the work campers greatly enjoyed the works. I have clarified this. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Birthday Suit, I mean Suite, for Prince Charles". Perhaps it could be made clearer that this work was by Tippett too. Also, when you mention it later, it is italicised differently.
 * Both points dealt with
 * A Child is born
 * "Kristallnacht (Crystal Night)" consider rendering the translation as "Night of Broken Glass"
 * I think, with the link and the parenthetical translation, genug ist genug Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sehr gut danke--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "A Child of Our Time, taking the title from A Child of Our Time, taking the title from Ein Kind unserer Zeit For those whose German is unmentionable, may I suggest "A Child of Our Time a translation of Ein Kind …
 * Sorry, your sentence seems to have got mangled. Could you restate the point? Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps more simply instead of "taking the title from", say "translating the title of"--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Morley etc.
 * " no apparent prospects" perhaps "no immediate prospects"
 * Yes, better. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Recognition
 * "This perception was strengthened " Which of the two in the sentence preceding?
 * Pluralised now.
 * Wider horizons
 * Two university notes. First, it is probably not necessary to say "at Austin" after the University of Texas as it is the flagship campus.  Second, Northwestern University, at least the main campus is in Evanston, Illinois, a bit north of Chicago.  Of course they may have facilities in Chicago, or had.
 * Both points taken.
 * Later years
 * I do admire his productivity into his nineties. Nearly as long as Meeker.
 * That is it for now, I will resume tomorrow if I have energy after a rather long drive.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * General Character
 * "Bowen has described Tippett as "a composer of our time", one who regularly engaged with the outside world. Beyond a smile at the sound bite, I will admit to not taking away much from this passage. Can the second part of it get down to cases?
 * I will ponder further on this. The section is not intended to be more than a brief overview, and I don't want to complicate it with too much detail. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Rather than turning his back on such barbarism," this passage troubles me as "turning ones back" can have varying meanings. Perhaps "Rather than ignore that barbarism"?
 * Agreed.


 * This short section seems to move to the specific to the general in a slightly confusing way. The first paragraph seems to be referring to Child, the second paragraph could be continuing that theme, or it could be talking about Tippett's works throughout his life from internal agonies, such as his need to come to terms with his sexuality.
 * Again, I need to ponder this. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Influences
 * "to end English music's perceived provincialism" If it is only perceived, it may not be there to be ended. Perhaps "to end the perception of English music as provincial".
 * Agreed
 * Withdrawn
 * "Tippett's early compositions cover several genres." I would expect a list, or at least examples to closely follow that. Instead, we have to wait until the next paragraph.
 * Earlier in the article, the listing of the works played at his 1930 concert give a pretty good idea of the range of hie early compositions. In this short section, I dont think it necessary to provide another list. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * First period
 * As a style suggestion, when italics causes overlap between a letter and a quote mark, a non-breaking space before the quote mark is often useful.
 * Can you point to where you mean? Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Ridout quote, the end quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The second sentence in the third paragraph is overlong and should probably be divided at the words "in a work". If you are minded to keep the sentence whole, I will then complain about how far back "in a work" has to go to find its referent.
 * Split and reworded
 * Reputation and legacy
 * The first paragraph might well be divided.
 * I think the paragraph has a unity. I can't find a point which suggests a natural break, and would prefer to leave it. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "who argued that the decline followed Tippett's abandonment of myth—seen as the key to the success of The Midsummer Marriage and King Priam—and from his increasingly futile efforts" I think a verb like "stemmed" might be needed before "from", but perhaps I am mistaken.
 * Agreed, tweaked
 * General comment
 * Could a thumbnail sketch of Tippett's personal life be included somewhere? It is alluded to in passing but perhaps something all in one place might be useful to the reader.
 * Good idea, I'll do this. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite good, expect it will shine at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I would not bank on that. Many thanks for a thorough and thoughtful review. Brianboulton (talk) 20:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I would. I will give it another read either before or during the FAC, depending on time commitments and how quickly you close this.  I've promised TCO to review Fluorine, and my chemistry knowledge is very rusty.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
A few minor tweaks here and there: feel free to revert if you don't like anything. Minor fare from me, although I'll need to do this in bits and pieces because of a glut of activity in RL that keeps interrupting. Having said that, the first tranche of my suggestions are::

Childhood and schooling
 * You mention Frances Tinkler twice, both times with the full name: do we need the "Frances" second time round?
 * Fixed. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Royal College of Music
 * "strained relationships between teacher and pupil": surely there is only one relationship here?
 * Link to Vaughan Williams?
 * Both fixed. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

A Child of Our Time
 * I think the OED have "co-ordinated", rather than "coordinated"
 * Dictionaries seem divided on this, e.g. Collins prefers the unhyphenated version, while allowing the other. I think either can be considered corect. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Refs etc
 * FN 150 isn't consitent with the others: should be "pp. 186–18", I think?
 * – if not 186–88 (it's become 151 now, btw)

More to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments so far. More will be welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Done down to "Withdrawn compositions" without complaint: rest to follow shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 09:06, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry this has dragged on a bit! All done now, with the final section all beautifully balanced and written, as always. Many thanks for such an interesting piece and please drop me a line when this goes to FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 08:09, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Not much to add, in truth. Balance between life and works strikes me as perfect, and the research and writing are as impressive as always.
 * Comments from Tim riley
 * Lead
 * "his near-contemporary Benjamin Britten" – I'd be inclined to call them contemporaries without the "near"
 * I suggest deleting the term. Except for the relative few who died between 1901 and 1905, he was the contemporary of everyone else who lived in the 20th century.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the word is generally taken to refer to those of a reasonably common age. I was (very briefly) alive at the same time as Sibelius, though I don't think of myself as his contemporary. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Childhood and schooling
 * "a precocious essay that refuted the existence of God" – I'd be careful with "refute": it means disprove rather than (as in this case) merely dispute or deny.
 * Changed to "challenged" (see Wehwalt's comment above) Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * A Child of Our Time
 * "using secular North American" – not so very secular, surely? My Lord, Jesus, Moses, the gates of Hell, and the Lord all feature in them.
 * Yes, not really secular (though hardly sacred). I have dropped the word. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Morley, war, imprisonment
 * "With the London Symphony Orchestra temporarily disbanded" – as the LSO's Vicar on Wikipedia I wish to deny (and can actually refute) the statement that they temporarily disbanded. Besides, this is the first we've heard of them, and it ain't clear why they've popped up here.
 * No idea why I satd LSO. I meant, of course, the South London Orchestra. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Recognition and controversy
 * "his first major opera project" – do we need "project" here?
 * I suppose not. Deleted. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "perplexed the opera-going public and critics alike" – I'm not wholly persuaded. Maybe the public boggled, but The Times (presumably Frank Howes) and The Observer (Peter Heyworth) were most enthusiastic, and though dear old Philip Hope-Wallace in The Manchester Guardian confessed himself a bit puzzled here and there, he too praised the work. I can send copies of their reviews if wanted.
 * Both Gloag and Bowen record that the majority of critics were unsympathetic, specifically citing Ernest Newman and The Musical Times. I have altered the text to "a division of critical opinion". I'd be obliged if you would email the Heyworth, and I'll incorporate a more positive quote. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sent. Tim riley (talk) 20:47, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "implied blame on the composer" – "blame of…"?
 * I have reworded to "...a wording that implied the fault was the composer's."


 * Third period: 1977 to 1995
 * Something has gone wrong with the punctuation or possibly the structure of the first sentence. Perhaps a full stop rather than a comma after New Year would do the trick.
 * (first stce of third para) – yes, the comma s/b a full stop. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Reputation and legacy
 * "The acerbic critic Norman Lebrecht" – if you're going to indulge in a POV label, what about **** or §§§§§§ or even ¶¶¶¶¶¶ for Mr Lebrecht? Mere vulgar abuse is not libel.
 * Damn! I thought I could get away with "acerbic". Regretfully I've dropped it, and resisted the urge to insert a choicer phrase. He did write a perfectly reasonable book on Mahler, though. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That's my lot. A pleasure to read and review. On to FAC! – Tim riley (talk) 09:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Tim, for these comments and nice words. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello - Tim Riley suggested I might pop round and have a look. Just three things caught my eye on a quick read-through (plus another two when on the following morning I re-read some of the latter sections, fearing I might have skimmed through these too lightly: Alfietucker (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)):
 * Comments from Alfietucker

Lead
 * "broadcaster" – not an activity I was aware of, nor one I suspect most readers will know of. It might be helpful to mention in parenthesis "from the mid-1940s".
 * I've made it "radio broadcaster", which should be clear enough. I think "much of his life" will do for "from the mid-1940s".


 * Sorry, I didn't explain clearly enough - I got you meant radio broadcasting, but I didn't know Tippett made spoken broadcasts on the radio, and my natural reaction was to think "when?". I had to read through a good deal of the article before I found the answer - hence why I suggested supplying a decade when he started. But maybe that's just me? Alfietucker (talk) 22:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Childhood and schooling
 * "Peter and Michael remained at school in England, travelling to France for their holidays." Peter is only mentioned once before, quite briefly. It might help readers to say here "Michael and his older brother, Peter, remained at school [etc]"
 * I've tweaked this. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Royal College of Music Reputation and Legacy
 * C.H. Kitson, aka Charles Herbert Kitson, has his own Wikipedia article: shouldn’t that be Wikilinked? (I see that's now been done.)
 * "such comments represented a more general critical sense that Tippett's creative powers had begun to decline". I’m not sure about this as English, though I guess the meaning is clear enough. Perhaps reword as "a more general view among critics that Tippett's creative powers [etc]"; or as "a more general critical consensus"?
 * Altered, per your (first) suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "In 1991 he published an episodic autobiography" – any reason not to give its title?
 * Title added.

Altogether, a very impressive achievement. Alfietucker (talk) 19:34, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time. I am very grateful for your comments. Brianboulton (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Note to reviewers: I don't know if there will be any more comments added to this review, but I shall be away until 24th October and therefore unable to respond before then. I'll leave the review open on the offchance; meanwhile, thanks to all who have contributed. Brianboulton (talk) 23:50, 15 October 2013 (UTC)