Wikipedia:Peer review/Muckrach Castle/archive1

Muckrach Castle


I've listed this article for peer review because I recently got it to GA status and I'm curious how far away it would be from FA status.

Thanks, Kj cheetham (talk) 20:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Jens
 * as the original seat of Grants of Rothiemurchus – link or explain "Grants", I assume it is a title?
 * Added link to Clan Grant.
 * make sure that every sentence has an inline citation (there is one paragraph that does not end in a citation)
 * Added a citation to that paragraph. I've assumed it's okay in for example the 2nd paragraph of the "20th to 21st century" section that the citations at the end of the paragraph are sufficient for the few sentances preceeding it.
 * restored by Ian Begg – mention that he is an architect?
 * Done.
 * He died in 1626.[3] He had the Tower House built in 1598. It served as the seat of the Grants of Rothiemurchus. – This could be re-formulated for better flow; the sentences are too short.
 * Done.
 * By 1876–1878 it was said that the castle "is now in a very serious condition nothing remains of it except the walls. – All quotes need attribution to an author.
 * Done.
 * The last paragraph of "Description": I am not sure that the bedroom plan is appropriate for en encyclopedia; consider deleting this paragraph.
 * I've trimmed it, but thought it was worth having a description of the modern interior.
 * Is there really nothing known about the history after the castle was built and before it was abandoned? For how long did the "Grants" reside there? Why did they left? Some background/context on this family is essential, I think. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 03:28, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this. Unfortunately I've not been able to find anything at all from that time period beyond basic descriptions of the castle. I'll keep looking though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Kusma
I will try to review with a view to FA status, focussing more on content / context / comprehensiveness than on prose, but I will just note what I find. Hope these comments are helpful, —Kusma (talk) 22:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The lead is very short and does not give an overview of the entire article. In particular, the Description section is not represented.
 * History: it would be great to have a little more context and background of the area and people involved. What was the "Muckrach estate"? Where did the Grants live before building this castle? Did Patrick Grant do anything other than have this house built? Is all of this in the Rothiemurchus Forest?
 * It's unclear how large the estate was at the time, but I've expanded details about it in the 20th to 21st century as there are more modern sources.
 * Patrick was knighted at least, but I probably need to look more into him specifically.
 * I've added a bit of text to say Grants of Rothiemurchus are a branch of Clan Grant.
 * Not clear about Rothiemurchus Forest at that time, but I don't think so. Looking at the more modern https://www.visitcairngorms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Cairngorms-National-Park-Map.jpg the forest is south-east of Aviemore and Muckrach Castle is closer to Grantown-on-spey further north. I didn't want to get into modern details of the forest and it's current owners (John Grant, 13th Earl of Dysart and Forestry and Land Scotland), as that's seemingly beyond the Muckrach estate and probably going off-topic. But might be worth a sentance...?
 * What does "fashionable introduction" mean?
 * Added some text.
 * Why 1767?
 * Good question! I've amended it slightly to make it clearer that's part of the quote. Unfortunately the book gives no further clues about why Ian Begg said that date in particular. Page 17 of https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Uq9JDwAAQBAJ&dq=muckrach+castle+1767&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s appears to reference a survey in the area in 1767, but I can't even find where to get hold of it to see what it actually says...
 * If we don't know anything about what J. Dick Peddie did to the tower other than owning it for a while, I am not sure the name is relevant information. Link John Dick Peddie and mention that he was an architect.
 * Added.
 * Is the tower still owned by the Elvetham Estate family group? What family is this referring to?
 * I believe so, but I'm based that on not having sources saying it's been sold since, so hestitate to explicitly include that in the article. I've reworded to make it clear it's the Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe family.
 * "given its heritage as the original seat of Grants of Rothiemurchus" so are they important people? We haven't really been told.
 * Explain a bit who Ian Begg (architect) is and tell us about his work on Scottish castles
 * "other areas where the stone corbelling was not trusted as timber had been used" explain more who did not trust the corbelling (is that a word I am supposed to know? Architecture articles always contain a lot of words I have never heard).
 * Do we know what the restoration cost? It does not sound cheap.
 * I've never seen a mention of cost, but I agree it doesn't sound cheap!
 * "The restored Tower House is used as a holiday apartment" in the lead we have apartments; is it one or several?
 * Good spot, it's just one.
 * Sad that Muckrach is not mentioned at Christmas in the Highlands.
 * Fixed.
 * Location: "Nearby are Castle Roy and Muckrach House" what about these places? Give a three word introduction also for people who do not click the links? ("the ruined thirteenth-century Castle Roy")
 * Added.
 * Description: "The castle is a relatively small structure compared to other typical castles" hmm, the word castle is pretty vast in meaning; how about comparing to other tower houses?
 * Is it known whether there were any other buildings nearby the "16th century defensive tower"? Or were the next buildings those in Dulnain Bridge?
 * That is the castle itself, which I've tried to make a bit clearer. There's the single storey tower that's mentioned, which is the round structure with the conical roof to the right of the infobox picture (and roofless on the right in the 1887 image with a connecting wall). It's now effectively connected to the main building via the conservatory. It did originally have some other buildings, but no details on what those were - as shown on the ground-floor plan on https://archive.org/details/castellateddomes02macguoft/page/77/mode/1up?view=theater and also included as an image in the article.
 * Harl, tourelle and embrasure were links I had to follow to know what this is about.
 * Expanded in the Description section.
 * "single-storey round tower, which was once part of the fortification" perhaps mention this in the history section; so far it was not clear that the tower was used defensively, not as a fashion statement.
 * Who does the "IG" monogram refer to? (There has been no "Jean Grant" discussed before).
 * "In God is al my Trest" is this just English written in Old (before they invented spelling) or is there anything to say about the language?
 * My interpretion is it's just before standardised spelling.
 * "a conservatory through glass doors and a small utility room via a spiral stone staircase." I think there is a word like "accessible" missing in your description.
 * Added.
 * , this is extremely helpful. Thank you! I've got limited time in the near future, but will try to address them when I can. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me know when you have addressed the more complex issues, then I can have another look. —Kusma (talk) 17:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A quick note to say I've not forgotten about this, having a Wikibreak, but will hopefully get back to it in the coming weeks. Many thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1

 * Lead
 * "in the Highland council area, which is part of the Cairngorms National Park" - while the Cairngorms might be in the Highlands, I don't think all of the Highlands district is in the Cairngorms?
 * "It is since used as a holiday apartment" - since is a bit odd. "now/currently"?
 * It is a bit short.


 * 16th to 19th century
 * "two years before his death in 1585, he passed it on to his second son and heir" - is the "it" referring to the Muckrach Estate or the Castle Grant Estate? And do we know what happened to his first son?
 * "Scottish architect Ian Begg said that based on its style, it may have been a "fashionable introduction", meaning its design was for social or cultural reasons rather than just functional, and guessed that John Grant brought the idea of a tower to the area." - a few things. I think it should be "The architect Ian Begg", or "Ian Begg, an architect who was later engaged to restore the castle .." or something. I'm not sure his nationality is that relevant, but fine for it to stay. More importantly, I'm not really getting what he's saying. I think it's something like: "Ian Begg, an architect from Scotland who later restored the house, considered its architectural style was innovatory for its place and time, representing a fashionable re-working of the tower house concept, from purely defensive purposes towards a more status-conscious expression of wealth and position". But without the source, I can't really be sure.
 * "it was said in an Ordnance Survey name book" - what's a "name book" and wouldn't, "by 1876 the OS reported that the castle was 'in a very serious...'" be a simpler wording?


 * 20th to 21st century
 * We've a gap of nearly a century, I don't know who Seafield were and how they came to own it, and in two sentences we go from the 1960s to 2024. I think it needs unpacking a bit.
 * Elvetham Estate - I think a bluelink to Elvetham Hall might not be best as they no longer own it, but they still have the 4,00 acre estate, a big chunk of Birmingham, as well as this 4,000 acres, and are loaded. Perhaps a mention of their back story? Who they are/were etc. Nothing too Hello/ST Rich List, but a bit.
 * "an arrangement of stones" - perhaps the second half of the first para. could be trimmed to compensate for the above. It is a bit...detailed.
 * "This was prompted by an Inverness County Council Planning Officer reminding the owners of their obligations when having a listed building" - this is intriguing, but unsourced. Was Sir Richard basically shamed into restoration by an implied compulsion order? Do we have a source?
 * "a filming location" - so it played second fiddle to Glamis, in a made-for-tv movie of dubious quality, sourced to a source of equally dubious quality. I hate the Media appearances sections on historic houses so just ignore me, but this is so trivial, I'd zap it.


 * Description
 * "The castle is a relatively small structure compared to other typical castles" - I agree with the comment above. It's more a tower house than a castle, and as to what a "typical" castle might be? It's not Windsor, or even Dunrobin, but not so modest when compared with, say, Earlshall Castle.
 * "had a courtyard and extensive other buildings" - "other extensive buildings", or "a number of additional structures"?
 * The last para. is again a little over-detailed, reading more like the advertising brochure. Is the wood-burning stove really notable?

Hope these few comments are helpful. KJP1 (talk) 15:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A quick note to say I've not forgotten about this, having a Wikibreak, but will hopefully get back to it in the coming weeks and your comments looks very useful. Many thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan
Hi, some comments:
 * "Grants of": "the Grants of", since we are dealing with plurals?
 * "It is since used": "It has, since then, been used"?
 * The lead needs to be expanded, 3-4 paragraphs are best.
 * Link to Elvetham Estate (Elvetham Hall#Estate)?
 * Link to Seafield Estate (Earl of Seafield)?
 * Link to MacGibbon and Ross in the biblio?
 * Provide a location of publication for Brennan-Inglis 2014?
 * Any reason why the three sources in the Further Reading section are not used in the article? FAC reviewers in all likelihood will ask you about this.

If I find anything on JSTOR or Google Books which could be added here, I will post it here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @Kj cheetham, could you check out these comments? I think you missed the notification for these. Matarisvan (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)