Wikipedia:Peer review/Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist/archive1

Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist
. I've listed this article for peer review because I want to check if has FA potential. I don't recall any FA about a Christian hymn, so can't tell. The hymn has quite a history: medieval beginning, Protestant expansion, Catholic expansion, musical settings.

Please don't look at the lead yet which will grow last, depending on the other sections. I plan to write more on the theology behind Luther's expansion, and on translations, unless you say I shouldn't. Would you like more background on Luther, or are the links enough? I'd like to know if the Catholic texts should also be included as far as not under copyright. I am open for suggestions and criticism, and as it's an all-purpose hymn, we have all the time ;)

Thanks, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * My only comment: the article name should be the English title of the song. --evrik (talk) 16:23, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Which translation would that be? It seems no common name in English, and only one of Luther's creations is here under an English name, - a name that is not really a good translation of the firm castle that he had in mind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I dont believe the article title should be in English; its not known as such as counts of google search results reveal. Ceoil  (talk) 00:43, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment

 * I'm a bit reluctant to review while the article-building process is still taking place. I can't contribute to the article's development, and rather than trying to wrestle with a moving target I'd prefer to review at a somewhat later stage, when the article reaches a more settled draft form. Brianboulton (talk) 16:12, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Brian, understand. What is your opinion on the 2 questions:
 * Would you like more background on Luther, or are the links enough?
 * Would you like to see the Catholic texts as far as not under copyright? (Thurmair is too young to be included.)
 * I hope for your feedback, because - with no model - I am really not sure what should be there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I would not extend the Luther background material by more than a brief sentence or two – keep the focus on the hymn. It would be useful to include the older Catholic texts together with publication dates. Brianboulton (talk) 12:05, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that helps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:43, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Ceoil
I'll be adding to this as I read through. Nice work though.
 * His version appeared first in 1524 - first appeared, but "appeared" is vague - either performed or published?
 * "published" taken --GA


 * Luther's chorale is part of many hymnals - many of his hymnals? Can't really parse this.
 * Not only his, many hymnals = church songbooks, a hymnal is a collection of hymns --GA
 * Still dont get it, obviously there are many hymnals. I would just go with "Luther's chorale inspired" Ceoil  (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't know. The song is printed in many hymnals, - why "inspired"? this says 46, but I am not sure which range they look at. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:51, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Distinguish hymnals from hymns
 * there are links, no?
 * There are now Ceoil  (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * sorry, reverted, there was one before, and I understand that linking twice is harmful ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:51, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * 'The leise was widely known. A tune derived from the chant of the sequence '' "A tune derived from its chant"?
 * I don't get it, sorry, possibly too late after a great opera and past midnight: "it's" would be the leise, but no, it's "of the the (older) sequence".
 * Equally unsure about "Beyond the pentecostal origin"; beyond? Should it be 'other than', or 'except for'. Ceoil  (talk) 00:41, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Thoughts of the time of death were with him throughout life, and he was not alone. Dont get - "and he was not alone"
 * taken from the source, p. 71: "Jedenfalls ist auch mit der Not in der Todesstunde ein Thema angeschlagen, das Luther zeitlebens bewegte, und nicht nur ihn." saying that the angush/need/? in the hour of death was a theme which "moved" (occupied/?") him throughout life, and not only him. - Hopefully you can paraphrase that better. I understand that it was a key topic at the time. --GA


 * The three added stanzas - the three later.
 * taken --GA


 * Johann Walter, who collaborated with Luther,  - on this, or on other works - would clarify
 * also on others, he did the music part, - how would you word that? --GA


 * What are the Geistliche Kirchen-Melodien
 * a collection of hymn, tried to avoid repetition and just said collection, - do you think it should be translated? ("spiritual/sacred church-melodies") --GA
 * Thanks, much better. Ceoil  (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Johann Crüger set the hymn as one of 161, used?
 * as one of 161 hymns, - again: tried to avoid repetition --GA


 * The sentence Herbert Blendinger composed in 1984 for cello and organ Meditation über den Choral "Nun bitten wir den heiligen Geist", Op. 36 needs work (ie what is "Meditation über den Choral" vs "Nun bitten wir den heiligen Geist".
 * it's his title of the piece, I added "italic=no" by mistake, but additionally tried to clarify, please check --GA
 * Perfect. Ceoil  (talk) 23:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for introducing me to a fantastic piece of music. Ceoil  (talk) 15:13, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for good comments, please check if I got it as you meant it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:31, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Jim
Just a couple of things struck me on first read
 * Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn&mdash; any reason not to give a translation?
 * Well, I though there's a link, but will add an English common name in brackets. The translation ("A spiritual song booklet") could be said about almost any hymnal ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)


 * ''Thoughts of the time of death were with him throughout life, and he was not alone.&mdash; and i don't think I'm alone in think this reads oddly, whatever the intention
 * More late if I get time Jimfbleak - talk to me?  16:11, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * See under Ceoil above. Thanks for looking! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Damien

 * "In the old German (Middle High German)" - why not just pipe 'old German' to the link instead of clarifying in brackets?
 * taken --GA


 * "Thoughts of the time of death were with him throughout life, and he was not alone" - I read the article before coming to the peer review. This stood out as very odd. I read your reply above, but I mean, three people have found this sentence confusing, and no doubt many more will. I'd strongly suggest rewording this.
 * Could you make a proposal for rewording, - I more or less translated, and don't know how far to deviate without changing the meaning. --GA


 * There's a noticeable lack of inline citations in the 'Catholic continuations' sub-section.
 * Will check. It's mostly sourced to the hymnal. --GA


 * Pentecost is wikilinked in the body, though not at its first mention.
 * good catch, fixed --GA


 * a cappella and Ernst Pepping are both wikilinked twice in the last section.
 * same --GA


 * Heinrich Scheidemann is repeated twice in a row in the last section
 * same --GA

That's all I found. Looks very good. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 12:53, 6 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for looking into it, Damien. I'd be grateful if you could propose a wording about Luther preoccupied with the thought of the Todesnot - hard to translate - the anxiety related to the time of death, and not just he, but many in the period. I wonder if it should be said more clearly that 2 lines of the 4 of the leise deal with support at the time of death? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Jmar67

 * Rudimentary copy edit completed. No specific questions or comments. I will take a closer look at the unresolved comments above. Jmar67 (talk) 16:55, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Revised sentence "Thoughts of the time of death..." Added German text as comment. Jmar67 (talk) 03:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The term "continuations" sounds odd. Is it a translation? Is it commonly used in other hymn articles? I would favor something like "further developments" or "later versions".Jmar67 (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No mention is made of the hymn's entry in the EG. I expanded the infobox "Tune" entries to explain the abbreviations. Jmar67 (talk) 15:16, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you all for valuable comments. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:10, 22 June 2019 (UTC)