Wikipedia:Peer review/Obernewtyn (novel)/archive1

Obernewtyn (novel)
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I have worked on this article for so long I am unable to see what needs changing, adding or removing from the page. I feel a fresh set of eyes is needed to look at it before I renominate it for GAN.

Thanks, Limolover  talk 11:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Limolover. So, I've done a quick copy-editing, and most of the article is fine. The biggest issue I see right now is that your plot summary section is much too long. It needs to be cut down a lot. Take out anything that's not important in the long run to the plot, and stick to essentials.  Bramble  claw  x   16:29, 1 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Most of the referencing is fine, but there are a few sources, especially reviews, that might be seen as unreliable; for example, the Need Coffee reference: I've never heard of the site, and Wikipedia doesn't have an article on it. You're likely going to be asked "how is this site reliable?".  Bramble  claw  x   00:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, plot summary shorter and remove blog reviews. Thanks Brambleclaw! -- Limolover  talk 03:58, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Review from Cunard

This article is well developed but not ready for a good article nomination.

Lead
 * "A science fiction/fantasy novel set in a post-apocalyptic world" – perhaps revise per MOS:SLASH.
 * The Library Journal stated it was a "thought-provoking tale of courage and sacrifice" – quotes should be cited even if they appear in the article's body.
 * The leaders of Obernewtyn are secretly searching for the old weapons which had sent the world to the brink of despair – revise "which" to "that".
 * The book has also been published in the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and Portugal. – remove "also".

Composition
 * Isobelle Carmody has said that the character and life experiences of Elspeth are a reflection of her own. – for concision, revise to "Isobelle Carmody has said that the character and life experiences of Elspeth reflect her own." Replace the period with a colon to lead into the blockquote.
 * The author has named Narnia, The Lord of the Rings, Doctor Doolittle and books about Pippi Longstocking as sources of influence. – revise to "The author named Narnia, ..." to convert the present perfect tense to the past, which makes the prose more engaging.

Synopsis
 * It is said to have been sent by Lud (God) to punish humanity. – it is said by whom?
 * I am unsure as to whether my fix fits prose-wise. What do you think (Context section)? -- Limolover  talk 10:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * My question is who said it was sent by Lud to punish humanity. I see you've revised it to "later said by the Herders (leaders of the new religous order)". That looks fine to me. Cunard (talk) 23:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The story is told in the first-person through the protagonist, Elspeth Gordie, a teenage girl who has secret mental powers such as telepathy and the ability to communicate with animals. – link to first-person narrative, telepathy
 * The story begins at Kindraide orphan home, where she and her brother Jes live, but the majority of the narrative is set at Obernewtyn, which lies in the northern mountains of the Land, the fictional nation in which the Obernewtyn Chronicles are set. – this sentence is a bit on the long side. Perhaps you can break it into two?
 * Back at the home, from her premonitions, and her cat Maruman's prophecies, Elspeth learns a keeper from Obernewtyn, a feared institution where the most afflicted Misfits are sent to work, will come to take her there, much to the fear of Jes. – perhaps repeat the mention from the previous section that Jes is her brother.
 * By mentally forcing Rosamunde to tell the keepers Elspeth is only having strange visions due to the tainted water she fell in, the nature of her true mental abilities remain secret. – this sentence is a bit convoluted and difficult to understand. It needs rewording for clarity.
 * which have caused Selmar and Cameo’s descent into madness – Selmar should also be possessive if he descended into madness.
 * Inside the cave-network – I don't think a hyphen is needed.
 * Inside the cave-network she finds a dying Cameo, who tells her the Beforetime weapons Alexi and Vega are searching for caused the Great White, but they do not know this; and that it is Elspeth’s destiny, as the Seeker, to destroy them. After mourning her death, Elspeth overhears that Rushton, imprisoned in the next cavern, is the true heir, as the son of the second Master of Obernewtyn, before she is captured by Ariel. Strapped to a table and the Zebrakhen machine, Elspeth is forced to hold the diaries of Marissa, the wife of the founder of Obernewtyn, and use her abilities to discover what Marissa was thinking when she wrote them to determine the weapons’ location. – the three consecutive long sentences leaves the reader a bit overwhelmed. To make this paragraph more engaging, perhaps rewrite to have some short sentences and some long sentences.
 * The plot comprises nearly half the article. I recommend condensing it by focusing less on the specific details and more on the generalities.

Reception
 * "The novel has also obtained an average rating of 3.96 out of 5 on goodreads.com." – Goodreads, a social cataloging, cannot be used as a reliable source. Because the ratings are aggregated from users and not from professional reviewers, this fact should be omitted. The rating can also be subjected to vote-stacking, which is why it is unreliable and generally excluded from articles.
 * Lloyd Alexander, an American fantasy author, comments – revise "comments" to "commented" for consistency with the rest of the section, where you use past tense.
 * For the third paragraph of the "Critical" Reception section, add an introductory sentence about how some reviewers had negative opinions about the book.
 * I dream of those other worlds and places where life is enchantingly complicated, more honourable, and where there is still room for noble deeds and great quests; a world in which even a Misfit might become a hero. – why is this quote included in the "Reception" section? It doesn't seem to belong.
 * The reception section reads like a quotefarm. I recommend summarizing and paraphrasing some of the reviews.

Publication history
 * link to the ISBNs using Template:ISBNT. Note the special format for tables.
 * Per WP:OVERLINKING, I recommend linking to the publisher on the first occurrence only for each table.
 * "Elspeth - Lady of Thought" – use an en dash in place of the hyphen

Adaptations
 * Are there secondary sources about the Corrugated Iron Youth Arts Theatre's adaptation? If not, they may not be notable enough for inclusion.

Sources
 * What makes http://www.burnbright.com.au/the-big-four-interviews-isobelle-carmody/ a reliable source? I do not see any editorial oversight.
 * http://www.obernewtyn.net/e107/page.php?31/ is a fan site. This is not a reliable source.
 * http://www.omnivoracious.com/2008/12/becoming-better.html is a user-generated review and is not a reliable source because it has had no editorial oversight.
 * Looking at their 'about us' section, this site appears not to be user-generated, and is rather run by the book editors of the amazon website. -- Limolover  talk 11:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay. Judging by the "about us" page, Ominvoracious seems to be a reliable source. Cunard (talk) 23:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1809338.Obernewtyn is not a reliable source.
 * http://www.obernewtyn.net/e107/e107_plugins/deptdir/deptdir.php?0.dept.1 – see above.
 * These two quotes are widely used both by the publishers and bookseller sites to promote the book, however I can find no independent source for them. Should I use the publisher's quoting of them? -- Limolover  talk 10:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you can cite the publisher's website in place of the Obernewtyn source? Cunard (talk) 23:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, that sounds more reputable. -- Limolover  talk 11:50, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.sfsite.com/12a/ob70.htm – I have doubts about the reliability of this source and have asked at Reliable sources/Noticeboard.
 * Per the discussion here, the website appears to be reliable. Please note 's suggestion. Cunard (talk) 07:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting discussion; I agree with your conclusion. In terms of their suggestion, is "as per review on sf_site" to be included as part of the main article, or part of the reference? I cannot find a movie page where rotten tomatoes is described thus. --  Limolover  talk 09:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Freknsay's suggestion is to attribute the reviewers for their work. Because you mentioned SF Site both in the text and the reference, you do not need to make any additional changes. (I hadn't checked when I made my previous comment.) Cunard (talk) 10:05, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Publishers Weekly and other journals should be italicized.
 * http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/record=b1375784~S1 – I think a better source can be found to source the information about Isobelle Carmody's winning the award. Library catalogs aggregate data from other sources, and their content has not been vetted for accuracy.
 * FN 14 (Larsen) should be formatted in "last name, first name".
 * http://www.sitiodolivro.pt/pt/livro/elspeth-a-senhora-do-pensamento/9789722517478/ – per WP:ELNO #5, webpages that sell products generally should not be linked to on Wikipedia. A more reputable source is preferred.

There is no information about the book's themes. I recommend creating a "Theme" section, using the structure of the featured article To Kill a Mockingbird.

The most significant issues that bar this article's promotion to GA are the use of unreliable sources, the lack of a theme section, and the prose problems. Once these issues are resolved, the article will be prepared for a GA nomination. Cunard (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks you Cunard for your thorough review. I have admittedly been having difficulty finding very reliable sources for some of these areas, but it seems silly to delete such information which is accurate merely because the sources are not well-known. -- Limolover  talk 00:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My rationale for removing the sources is not because they are "not well-known" but because they are not reliable. The lack of editorial oversight and fact-checking for accuracy renders those sources unusable for a Wikipedia article. There are some sources at Google News Archive that you have not used in your article. Google Books may also be helpful. Cunard (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

More sources Some of the sources are about the series as a whole or about the other books, though some will be helpful. Cunard (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/13272D7663A64C08/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (South China Morning Post: April 27, 2008)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/106048186851AAFD/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (The Canberra Times: October 29, 2004)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/11E901EEE5FB82C0/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (The Canberra Times: February 2, 2008)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/11F0B6D5A5C9D7E8/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (Herald Sun: February 26, 2008)
 * "Obernewtyn is even studied at some schools."
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/10EB9B8B4319F5E8/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (The Canberra Times: December 24, 2005)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/106376ADCE353000/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (Northern Territory News: November 5, 2004)
 * There is information about the Corrugated Iron Youth Arts in this article.
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/1222BD19E8A08340/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (The Sunday Mail: July 27, 2008)
 * "Obernewtyn: Book 1 in The Obernewtyn Chronicles" listed in "50 Books you can't put down".
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/103B7D6D0AF4C330/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (Northern Territory News: July 9, 2004)
 * "Corrugated Iron Youth Arts are seeking actors to audition for a play which will be based on a children's sci-fi series."
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/0F51ADCA43B6467B/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (Dayton Daily News: March 8, 1995)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/128500F5DB6AD838/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (Edmonton Sun: May 19, 2009)
 * http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/AWNB/0FD87029234B61DB/0D7C12F5A8A2A86AWebCite (The Sunday Mail: July 13, 1999)


 * Fantastic, thanks for these Cunard. I was unaware this database existed. -- Limolover  talk 05:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)