Wikipedia:Peer review/Otis Redding/archive1

Otis Redding
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I need advices from you how to improve this article to GA-status or even FA-status. Thanks.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ Hey it's me I am dynamite 08:40, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I've started a cursory review of the article. Don't take this the wrong way GreatOrangePumpkin, but there's a considerable amount of text that isn't proper English - which should not be surprising given you're en-2 listing. I'd be happy to work through these with you, but it's going to be an intensive process with lots of back-n-forth. If you're willing to find references and such I think we could get this to FA pretty quickly.
 * As an example of what I'm talking about, let's work through this paragraph:
 * At the city's airport, Redding's pilot Dick Fraser contacted a mechanic to control Redding's plane for possible issues. James Alexander of the Bar-Kays was on a commercial plane, since there were eight members in Redding's party and the plane could only hold seven. Four miles from the airport Fraser radioed in to get permission to land. There were downfall and fog at this time. Ben Cauley, one of the Bar-Kays, heard a jolt and the falling of the plane. According to him, the plane tipped to the left and the pilot tried to overturn it to the right, but without success. The plane crashed into the Lake Monona. Cauley was the only person aboard the plane to survive the crash.[26] He reported that he had been asleep until seconds before impact, and recalled that upon waking he saw bandmate Phalon Jones look out of a window and say, "Oh, no!" Cauley said the last thing he remembered before the crash was unbuckling his seatbelt. He then found himself in the frigid waters of the lake, grasping a seat cushion to keep afloat.[27]
 * OK, so did Fraser contact a mechanic before leaving Cleveland? It's not clear. The statement "contacted a mechanic to control Redding's plane for possible issues" does not make sense. Do you mean "to check Redding's plane"? "Four miles from the airport"… which airport? Cleveland? "There were downfall and fog", downfall does not make sense in English. Do you mean rain was falling? "heard a jolt and the falling of the plane" does not make sense… "and the falling"… do you mean "and felt the plane falling"? " pilot tried to overturn it to the right", overturn it can't be right, that means he's trying to flip it upside down, which I doubt. The rest is fine. Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok I think it's a lot better now. I'd still like to flesh out the crash section a bit, I'm a pilot so I'll read the NTSB report and see if there's anything interesting. Other than that, I think it's ready for a run at GA. 15:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Well the NTSB report is a bust, but I found a book that went into some detail. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your peer review and your edits, and I agree it looks better now. You said you couldn't find anything about the mechanic, but here is the source that mentions him: . Also I try to find the location of their first flight (I thought the Truax airport was the starting point); maybe you can help. Thanks again!-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ Hey it's me I am dynamite 17:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That definitely mentions it, but I'm not sure what to make of it. It sounds very routine, I'm not sure it's trying to imply that Fraser was looking for anything. I also notice that Cauley's story is different in different sources. In a recent newspaper article he says that he was trying to get to Redding but couldn't, but I don't know if that's something we should mention either. Maybe as a quote? Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe it sounds routine, but it provides an ironical impression. That he tried to get to Redding is already mentioned on several books. I don't think this is necessary to include it here.


 * Comments from Jappalang

General
 * Several paragraphs (several of which have statistics, opinions, and information that potentially might be challenged) are missing citations. For FA, the recommendation is at least one citation per paragraph.

Singing style
 * This seems a bit skimpy, especially with sources such as this and this among others. At the FA level, the exclusion of those sources and parcity of information here would be questioned.

Legacy
 * This seems a little bit proseline and could be tweaked a bit: separate the paragraphs into themes or such.

In popular culture
 * There is frankly no point for this section (which in bullet form also tends to lower the "professional" standard of the article). The first point can be integrated into the Legacy section.  There is no context to the second point (so what if he was "adapted" in a television story?).  The last is even more trivial.

Sources and references
 * What makes songfacts.com and collecting-celebrity-autographs.com reliable sites per Wikipedia Signpost/2008-07-28/Dispatches and Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches?


 * "Freeman, p. 77": Who is Freeman?


 * "Stewart, p. 8": Who is Stewart?

Images
 * File:Otis Redding.jpg, File:RSObit.jpg, File:OtisReddingStatue.jpg: For dead subjects without "free" images, we tend to allow a non-free image for illustration of the subject (an exception for WP:NFCC #1). That said, it seems excessive for 3 non-free images here and it can be said that the orbituary could serve as the lead image.  There is no critical commentary about the statue that would require illustration for further understanding.  As such, I would consider the use all three a violation of NFCC #3a.  I recommend just using the orbituary and excluding the other two images.

Overall, I think the content is there but work needs to be done. Jappalang (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your peer review! 1)I don't think references are missing in paragraphs. For example the information of the section "First single and first album" can be found on Gulla's book Icons of R&B and Soul: An Encyclopedia of the Artists Who Revolutionized Rhythm, Volume 1, which is the last references. 2)Thank you for these books; will see if they give more information. 3)Will see what I can do. 4)I think the last two points are informative for readers and doesn't contain trivial information. The first one is to trivial and unimportant, so I removed it. The last two are important in my opinion, because being featured/mentioned in television series or books are examples of how he influenced people not only in music, so I merged them into the Legacy section. 5)Will try to replace songfacts and collecting-celebrity-autographs with more reliable sources. Fixed Freeman source; couldn't fix the Stewart source, as book not found. Maybe it's "Otis! The Otis Redding Story", but as I don't own this book, I can not say if this is true. 6)I think all three show encyclopedic value and illustrate the subject. Yes, the last two pictures are the weakest one, but I am still of the opinion that they are important. They support the sections "Legacy" ""(Sittin' On) The Dock of the Bay" and death" in many respects, such as reinforcing the several statements. -- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ Hey it's me I am dynamite 07:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't think references are missing in paragraphs.": Please check again; first paragraph of Early life has no citations at all. So too, first paragraph of Early career, and last two sentences of second paragraph of "Try a Little Tenderness".  Please go through the article thoroughly.
 * "Being featured/mentioned in television series or books are examples of how he influenced people not only in music": No, I do not agree. Unless Stephen King specifically state "I made Redding the sheriff because he reminds of .... which puts him into a position of power that undoubtedly reflects his standing in the music industry, blah blah blah; not many can equal Redding in this aspect" or such, the simple inclusion does not show an "influence".  There are many nuclear age story books about war, but that does not mean nuclear weapons of the modern military equipment (M1, T-80 tanks, F-15, Su-27) have "influence".  They are simply reflections of the time or representative of the theme.  In King's case, his television story has the theme of dead music stars and Redding is merely one little component of the mass of such zombies (there is no reason behind his inclusion other than he was dead and was a star).  The same goes for the songs in that movie; unless commentary backs the reason that they were included more because they were Redding songs rather than simple licensing issues or themes, they do not belong in this article (if its due to its theme, the song article would be the more appropriate place for it; licensing issues would be more relevant in the film article).
 * For the non-free images, I disagree (#8: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."): the statue does not need to be seen to understand that someone has commemorated Redding with one; the obituary and the first image serve equally well as the lede (identifying) image, only one of them is needed to identify Redding and the obituary can serve as both identifying image and a show of the impact of his death (via the headline and publication), which satisfies #3a ("Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."). Jappalang (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Everything is cited as far as I can see, except the last two sentences of "Posthumous releases"; I will add the references if necessary. In the "Early Life" section, reference 9 is the source for the complete section; the second last is cited because the book doesn't mention that he won 15 weeks in a row. The same goes to the "Early career" section; reference 10 is the source for the both paragraphs. In the "Try a little tenderness" section, the text from "To search" until "Al Bell" is avalailable in the Gulla book. Removed pop culture. I don't understand NFCC and why it exists, so you might give me an advice how to "convert" it to "free media", because the pictures are really important here.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ Hey it's me I am dynamite 18:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As stated earlier, if you are attempting for FA, almost everything (at the least, each paragraph) has to be cited. If you are going to attempt for that, then those have to have citations (even if the next paragraph is cited to the same source).  Stringent GA reviewers might also demand more citations than what the article has now.  "Free media" either has expired copyrights (more importantly, US copyrights), or its copyright holders has agreed to allow anyone to use the media for any purpose (to sell, to modify, to re-publish, etc.).  None of those three photographs right now would qualify as "free" (the first is of unknown copyright status, the obituary is very likely still copyrighted by Rolling Stone, the statue is erected in 2002 and copyrighted until 70 years beyond the sculptor's passing; furthermore the US has no freedom of panorama for works of art installed in public places).  Jappalang (talk) 02:56, 7 September 2011 (UTC)