Wikipedia:Peer review/Ozzie Smith/archive1

===Ozzie Smith===

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I've worked on it since September 2007, and need some final touches to get it up to Featured Article status. I'd appreciate any general comments and suggestions for improvements, and would specifically like help on the best way to format and present the References and Bibliography section to the reader.

Thanks, Monowi (talk) 22:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It is still open and located at Peer review/Ozzie Smith/archive1.

A review for you.
 * Comments by IvoShandor

I have now bolded what I perceive as items that would be major hindrances at FAC. IvoShandor (talk) 21:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Early life section
 * First sentence could use a rewrite, it's kind of awkward. Try: . . . born to his parents Clovis and Marvella Smith. If confusion over gender ensues try including the maiden name of Marvella, if it is known, like so: Marvella Smith (née whatever).
 * I don't know Marvella's maiden name, so I kept the edit simple. Sentence now reads; "Born in Mobile, Alabama, Smith was the second of six children (five boys and one girl) born to his parents Clovis and Marvella Smith." Monowi (talk) 07:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good. IvoShandor (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This sentence: During this time the family also happened to live near Amos Otis, who like Smith would later become a Major Leaguer --It's wordy and informal, look for problems like this throughout. Lose the informality, just say: During this time the family lived near Amos Otis, who . . . (Make sure to link Amos Otis)
 * Shortened sentence so it now reads; "Future Major League Baseball player Amos Otis lived in Smith's neighborhood during this time period." Monowi (talk) 07:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellente. IvoShandor (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Before I continue, I think I may give this article a good copy edit, if you so desire. I will await your reply and then go over it, conducting a peer review more focused on content than writing and sentence structure. That way I don't waste your time with trivial, easy to fix errors. IvoShandor (talk) 07:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * A copy edit would be much appreciated. Thanks, Monowi (talk) 19:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, starting over, early life section. Linked above.


 * First I am doing a copy edit. One of the things I noticed initially was the overuse of adjectives which conveyed a certain POV, such as "fun" or "unusual", I have removed these where appropriate but it's something to be conscious of as you work.
 * I have added a few wikilinks where I thought they might help the reader get a bit more depth on related topics.
 * Where you see "citation needed" are just other spots I thought likely to be challenged down the road or that seemed like assertions of fact that went beyond the realm of common knowledge.
 * When was it he was attending 25 Dodger games per year? This would be something good to be more concrete on.
 * I cited this info from Ozzie's biography "Wizard," and have yet to find a mention of the "25 Dodger games a year" in another source. Unfortunately, "Wizard" doesn't give a specific time frame, so it looks like that that info will be absent for the time being. It would make sense if it was from the time he was ten until high school, but yes, a source for a specific time frame is important. Monowi (talk) 01:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be good to diversify sources in this section if possible as it seems to rely largely on autobiographical material, which is not always the best source because of the tendency toward embellishment.
 * Get more specific on the dates with his time at Cal Poly Tech.
 * Added a citation from a webpage on the Cal-Poly site. The dates of his attendance there, 1974-1977, makes his stop in Iowa in 1976 seem odd. My guess is he just played semi-pro ball during the summer, but I haven't found any references to support this. I recall in his hall of fame speech in 2002 he talked about his time in Iowa, but I can't find a copy of his speech anywhere online to see if it can shed any light on the matter. Monowi (talk) 04:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

IvoShandor (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Career section
 * Right away I noticed the lack of a transition from his Cal Poly Tech days to his semi-pro ball days. By adding the dates of his time at San Luis Obispo we partially clear this up, but we need to know how he goes from California to Clarinda, Iowa (of all places). This represents a significant gap in comprehensiveness.
 * The Walla Walla Padres would be a good red link to fill in. (I didn't link but it's something to keep in mind)
 * Done. Monowi (talk) 07:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I noticed that yesterday, nice. :) IvoShandor (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not sure how the folks at FAC feel about intro grafs below second tier headlines such as you have at the head of this section. I only know in my only FA bid (which was succesful) I didn't utilize them. IvoShandor (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Text moved. Monowi (talk) 07:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Padre years section
 * However, in a sign of the instability and turmoil to come during Smith's time with the Padres, Dark was fired in the middle of training camp. I thought that could use a citation.
 * Added the citation, and combined the sentence with his debut info to read, "Even though Dark was fired in the middle of training camp, Smith made his MLB debut on April 7, 1978.[12][13]" The only citation I had handy was Ozzie's 1988 book; I found what looks to be a great article on Dark's dismissal on the NYtimes archive, but you have to pay to get access to the full text. Monowi (talk) 21:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads-up about possibly being able to get the article in PDF form. If it works out that you can get it, by all means go ahead and plug that reference into the article; it would be a great addition. I'm with you on the "Go Crazy" home run too; truly one of the greatest moments in Cardinal history! Monowi (talk) 04:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Most of the time words like "nevertheless" or "however" aren't very useful, and can, in fact, imply POV.
 * I wasn't sure on this one, so we can decide together. Should we reestablish that MLB stands for Major League Baseball in the body of the article?
 * It's a good thing to have in the body of the article in addition to intro, so I added it in. Monowi (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * . . . what some consider his greatest defensive play only ten games into his rookie season. Who is this ambiguous some? A citation or two would clear that up.
 * In the quotation about the play against Atlanta: He (Burroughs) hit a ball back up the middle that everybody thought was going into center field. This seems to be missing a word, perhaps "it"? Good choice there with the quote from Smith. (That play is one of the most awesome things I have ever seen, btw)
 * After double-checking the source material, I took out "(Burroughs)", which I had originally included to give the reader an idea of who Smith was talking about. The quotation is now the exact same, word for word, as it appears in the source material. I'm confused where you believe a word is missing, but hopefully this revision will alleviate your concern. Monowi (talk) 01:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The story about Smith's contract dispute with San Diego is great but it really needs an objective, third-party source to back it up. This is where autobiographical stuff can be sketchy as far as reliability. It shouldn't be too hard to back up.IvoShandor (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Trade section
 * Have only noticed this a couple of times but once something is linked it usually doesn't need to be linked again unless it appears much further along in the article.
 * It's up to you (I didn't change it) but in the last sentence of the first graf you could remind the reader who Gottleib is again.
 * Let's try to nail down when the winter meetings were and get a more solid time period for the deal. The phrase "With little haste" is too ambiguous.
 * I know I have said it before, but it will probably ring true throughout the article, the more third party sources you have to confirm things, the better.
 * I didn't think of it 'til now, but the MOS says no links in direct quotes, they must stay true to the original quotation. I probably missed removing some in previous quotations.
 * Fixed. Monowi (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * See if you can find a way to combine or expand the one sentence paragraph that ends the section.IvoShandor (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed;I'm now using it as the transition into the 1982 section. Monowi (talk) 06:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Intermission (General comments and disclaimers)

A little break.

IvoShandor (talk) 20:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC) IvoShandor (talk) 22:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't take anything here personally, I like to keep a light tone in my reviews, so I don't mean to be insulting.
 * I know this looks daunting but a lot is really just me saying stuff and you won't actually have to do anything. Other things are me pointing out errors that are quite common across the wiki and your eyes may indeed be able to snipe out some I don't catch.
 * Some of this is based on what I think could be issues raised at FAC.
 * Oh man, I can't believe we don't have fair use audio of Buck's call for that home run.
 * I went ahead and added an external link to the audio call of the home run in the EL section.
 * A "further reading" section would be good, any biographies that Ozzie wasn't involved or in depth magazine articles would be good links.
 * I wonder if his speed on the basepaths might warrant more discussion somewhere. He ranks pretty high amongst all-time base stealers.

1982 season section
 * This section is pretty good, but He became a father for the first time with the birth of his son O.J., today known as Nikko, on April 28 in San Diego. This sentence is weird, is it even relevant about "O.J." if he isn't known by it, unless there is some way to make it more relevant it just seems to make the sentence bulky.
 * I don't think we had established that NLCS stood for National League Championship Series, so I did that, correct me if I am wrong.
 * The lone citation I thought was needed could probably be found in any sports writing from then but the team nickname for the Brewers should probably have a source. Any source will probably do as long as it meets the requirements for reliability. I'll leave this up to you.IvoShandor (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Citation about Brewers' nickname added. Monowi (talk) 05:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Go Crazy Folks section
 * Do we have the date of the 1984 game in which Smith was HBP resulting in the injury?
 * I'm a baseball fan and I don't know this for sure, is "home run line" the official term?
 * Since the sentence the term "home run line" was in simply talked about how Mike Marshall threw the ball to the infield, I removed to the sentence to circumvent the issue, and by doing so it make the section more concise and focused. Monowi (talk) 01:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, more specificity, do we have the date of the injury-causing dive into first base?
 * Good section.

Pinnacle: 1987 section
 * The 1987 World Series marked the team's third trip to baseball's biggest stage in six years, where they proceeded to win all three games played at Busch Memorial Stadium against the Minnesota Twins. They couldn't manage to scrap together a single win in Minnesota's Metrodome however, dropping the Series in seven games. These two sentences need to be rewritten, they implies that the Cards went up 3-0 and then lost four straight. Maybe you could take a stab at it?
 * Issue addressed. Monowi (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If any other players have complained about the blowers at the Metrodome it might be relevant to mention in this section.
 * Added a reference (currently #53 at the time of this post) that says Herzog and former MLB managers Alan Trammell and Bobby Valentine also suspect the Twins organization of tampering with the air-conditioning during games. Monowi (talk) 05:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Stuck another in this section.
 * A citation was added to address this awhile back, but more importantly, I removed potential POV material about changes in the Cards organization, which probably necessatated the "citation needed" tag in the first place. Monowi (talk) 01:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Another relatively error free section.IvoShandor (talk) 22:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Torre era section IvoShandor (talk) 22:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * While players such as Willie McGee and Vince Coleman left the Cardinals under the watch of Anheuser-Busch, Smith remained in St. Louis. This sentence's meaning is unclear.
 * Watch your tenses, almost everything should be past tense, watch for over use of words such as ". . . after having shoulder surgery on 31 May, ultimately appearing in only 44 games that season.". Instead just: "After shoulder surgery on 31 May, he ultimately appeared in only 44 games that season.". I have tried to fix areas I considered wordy but you can look for it too.

More general comments/thoughts
 * Surely Smith's All-Star appearances and Gold Glove streaks deserve some mention.
 * More to come here.
 * We need to clarify the number of children he has, there names, and genders. We should also be told how many times he has been married, if this is known.
 * Added a sentence about his children. I'm almost certain Smith has yet to be married a second time, but have failed to find a reference that specifically states Smith has not remarried as of the time of this post. Monowi (talk) 01:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

IvoShandor (talk) 22:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

1996 section
 * Is the story about the commercial with McGee a notable enough event to include? I lean toward no, unless there is significant third-party (probably media) coverage of it.
 * Text removed. I like this idea because the text now flows better when it doesn't get sidetracked by the story of the commercial.Monowi (talk) 07:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * NPOV: This New York Times article, "Bad Blood Surfacing for Padres-Cardinals", seems to provide a viewpoint that Smith eventually accepted his reduced role in 96. Though, some other sources seem to indicate the bitterness carried on between LaRussa and Smith. This is something that could be expanded on. Ron Gant's 1999 comments probably have some relevance in the context of this feud since he brought up Smith. Illuminate this issue to satisfy NPOV and comprehensiveness.
 * Thanks for the extra sources. Unfortunately, the La Russ/Smith situation is so muddled, that these sources don't add much significant info in my opinion; I will probably add the NY Times article mention of the "reduced role" acceptance at some point. I'm also puzzled about your mention of Ron Gant's comments; I've never heard that Gant commented on the issue, so I was wondering if you could point me to a source that would clarify Gant's involvement/comments. Thanks, Monowi (talk) 22:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The "lifetime" contract came out of nowhere.
 * A couple dropped in there. The second one needs a cite for the fact that the entire baseball world was surprised.
 * For the second citation, I removed the POV "entire baseball world" text, but I left the citation notice because I would like to get a reference that confirms the Cards were up 3 to 1 in that series. Monowi (talk) 04:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now added the 1996 NLCS reference. Monowi (talk) 06:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What was the result of Smith final, pinch hit at bat in the 96 LCS?
 * He flied out to right field; I just added it into the article. Monowi (talk) 09:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

IvoShandor (talk) 23:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Retirement section (intro graf) IvoShandor (talk) 23:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Made a few minor changes but everything looked pretty good.

Cooperstown and beyond section
 * What percentage of the ballots was he elected by? Unanimous?
 * I previously had this info in the article, and was able to re-add it with one of the references already cited. Monowi (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

IvoShandor (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This would be where you could expand on the feud and how Ron Gant played into it.

Overall looks pretty good. I may think of some additional things as we go on. Feel free to discuss anything I said here, you may have some good counterpoints to some of my comments. Hope this helps. IvoShandor (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)