Wikipedia:Peer review/Plano Senior High School/archive1

Plano Senior High School
I have been working on this article for a long time with the help of such other school editors as User:Harro5 and others from the school project. It is listed as a good article and is a showcase article at the schools portal. It features mostly GFDL and PD photographs and cites a multitude of sources to verify its content. I would love for this article to show up on the main page someday as a featured article, and I would like feedback to that end. Thank you so much for taking the time! &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 21:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Great to see Wikiproject Schools really having an effect on Wikipedia content. From top to bottom:
 * Lead: Could use some slight expansion to be a true article summary, and the statement about the Mascot should be definitively in the main article (probably the athletics section).
 * Tad bit of lead expansion with moving high school system explanation here. This is what the hopkins article does.  What do you think? &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks much better. Staxringold 13:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Plano's high school system: Does this really need it's own major section? Maybe make it a sub-section of history?
 * Taken care of, see above and below. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done. Staxringold 13:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * History: Very well sourced. My only things would be merging the PHSS section mentioned above, and attributing the "citizens 'were perfectly happy with their school and would like to be left alone.'" quote in the Brown v. Board of Education paragraph (which can probably be merged, it's very short) as it has no ref.
 * Yea, that entire subheading had the same source so I just sourced at the end, however, I have merged some paragraphs and added an extra source tag for clarity. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. Staxringold 13:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Academics: This is the thinnest section, IMHO, and the section in need of the most work. First, a lot of the stubby one/two sentence paragraphs should probably get merged together. Second, if you could find/dig out a course catalog and give a little more depth to notable bits/departments within the school, to give a little bit of flavor to what is going to be a dull section in a school article. Also, the sentence "Yearly, the school administers more Advanced Placement tests than any other school west of the Mississippi River, and the second most tests in the United States, 2,237 exams in total." could really use a source. Finally, the NMS info should either be summarized or compared to some kind of averages (and put into a table) to be in context.
 * Yea, what a dry section it will be indeed! But, if I can find more info about the electives that Plano offers (which are plentiful) it should be better. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * More information is good, but a source for what you have would also be helpful. Staxringold 13:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Extracurriculars: Very nice formatting/sourcing on the information you have, but some kind of non-athletic EC info would be nice.
 * Athletics really win the day in Plano even though academic teams kick just as much butt. I will round up info on all academic teams shortly and add it to the article. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In the News: This section has to be merged into the article/removed. One of the requirements of an FA is stability, and an ITN section inherantly isn't.
 * Merged to appropriate sections. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Notable alumni: This section works, though if it grows much larger you should probably make List of notable Plano Senior High School people or List of notable Plano Senior High School alumni/ae.
 * Duly noted. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Very good article, mostly just housekeeping stuff. Staxringold 21:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Unlike Staxringold I was very pleased to see a "Plano's high school system" section in the TOC, thinking "Oh, great, this is just what's missing in school articles, a bird's-eye view that places the school in perspective, a section that speaks to people who're not students of the school and perhaps even to the international reader of the international encyclopedia!" Very disappointing to see what it really was: about athletics exclusively! (At least show some awareness that school athletics are not of this huge importance everywhere in the world.) Nine tenths of readers are immediately excluded by the first sentence "The organization of Plano high schools is particularly unusual" without mentioning what kind of default organization it's unusual in relation to, sigh... and, I couldn't believe this, the word varsity is not explained and not even linked! See, this assumption that everybody has the frame of reference of an American high-school student is the blight of school articles. :-( Practical advice: I'd love to see a "Plano's high school system" section that lived up to its name, it would lift you above the rut of school articles, but I realize it may be a lot to ask. I agree with Staxringold that the present one is misplaced (as well as ignoring the needs of the majority of readers), though the info seems valuable (insofar as I can undertand what it says, which isn't very far). I've only glanced through the rest, I'll read some more later, but I urge you to do a general overhaul from the point of view of "How do people not US high school students need to have our information presented in order to understand it?" and "What information about the school is interesting to the outside reader, as opposed to merely to our own students?" Bishonen | talk 14:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC).
 * I have eliminated the section and moved the explanation to the lead. I have eliminated all references to athletics in the lead and placed them in the extracurriculars section.  I hate to say it, but the reason why the section sounded so focused on athletics is because that is (rumored to be) one of the main reasons why the administrators changed to the current format.  Of course, that's just a rumor. Let me know if this clears up your confusion/concerns. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As an Australian, I found the section "Plano's high school system" very difficult to understand. In fact I have somewhat no idea what the section is talking about. I also found the entire article very difficult to read. Overall the sentences failed to follow fluently into each other and it was a case of stumbling from fact to fact with very little guidance at all. This grammatical issue really needs to be addressed. MyNameIsNotBob 10:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It is very difficult to write an article where there may be more than 10 years between events in a fluent style, but I will try. I have rewritten the PHSS section.  Please let me know if you can understand it now.  If not, let me know what is confusing you and we'll fix it together. Thanks. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 13:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it clears up my immediate confusion to do with that particular section, but not my overriding concern, which is generally the big one for all school articles. I quote myself: "I urge you to do a general overhaul from the point of view of "How do people not US high school students need to have our information presented in order to understand it?" and "What information about the school is interesting to the outside reader, as opposed to merely to our own students?" I think there is more to understanding the article — compare MyNameIsNotBob's complaint — than the issue of fluent style. It's a matter of imaginatively putting yourself in the place of a reader whose cultural circumstances are very different from your own. I know that's not easy. And I know I speak so generally here that it won't be much use to you; I'll try to return with specifics. Bishonen | börk börk börk 13:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC).
 * Thanks for the offer to come back with specifics later. I appreciate it.  As you have properly diagnosed, I am having trouble taking myself out of the United States and writing this article.  I have never gone to school outside the United States so I would appreciate input from those who have regarding what is confusing or US-centric.  Thanks again! &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 00:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, to be going on with:
 * You have a stumbling-block right in the Lead, where the junior=11 grade, senior=12 grade conundrum is presented as an arithmetics puzzle for the outsider to work out, before s/he can understand how the first sentence relates to the last. And you have to click on two links before you can even start thinking... compare WP:LEAD: "It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible".
 * Oops, sry. I changed the one reference and not the other.  Making the changes now. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 18:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 80% of a graduating class going on to tertiary education: this needs to be related to some kind of national or regional average or likelihood in order to give a sense of whether it's a lot or a little. For instance, it wouldn't be "vast" at all where I come from, where youth unemployment is high and getting a job straight out of high school is all but impossible. Feel free to be a little more specific and statistics-oriented about where Plano graduates go on to, if you have interesting info about it. That might say more than bare figures, and the mention of "such as Harvard and Yale" (!) has already left a question mark about it in the reader's mind, since their fame actually is world wide. And when was this situation exactly? That's not clear.
 * This quote comes from the local newspaper in 1915, so that's the timeframe applicable. The paper listed all of the students going on to higher education in that school year, and Harvard, Yale, and the other were all listed.  I have added the year for clarity. What else should I do with this to improve it then? &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 18:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I see. I suggest you mention the Plano Review in your text, count those students, and actually quote at least the overall figure, plus the figures for Harvard and Yale. Incidentally, IMO it wouldn't be wrong at all to use a phrase or so actually in quotation marks, from the newspaper article; quotes give cool local color. Bishonen | talk 10:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC).


 * ...aaaand: please explain or link, or preferably both, the word credit (education). No, I'm quite serious. It's not merely that other school systems use a different word; it's more that the whole "credits" way of thinking about school qualifications isn't universal.
 * Added a small explanation and the wikilink.&mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 18:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The subdivision of the History according to the three names for the school is very clever and helpful, btw! :-)
 * Thanks! &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 18:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the changes you've made so far very much, they work extremely well. Bishonen | talk 10:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC).

A little more:
 * The structure of "Extracurriculars" is a little strange. It's the parent of three subsections (of rather too uneven length, which is a problem), "Athletics", "Wildcat marching band" and "Academics". And yet the information directly under the parent heading is also all about athletics. It needs to be moved to "Athletics", AFAICS, unless there's some compelling reason not to. This info is also a little unclear, and does not come in the most helpful order. It's more reader-friendly to start with a "topic sentence", and join the whole up into one paragraph — I'd do it, if I understood it better. Are the first two sentences general rules (or Texas, or Plano rules?)?
 * District alignments apply to every extracurricular whether sports, arts, or academic. I'll take another look at this after lunch.   &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 16:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed up wording so that it's clear this is not only athletics. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 22:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Does "The school will move District 9-5A" mean "move to"? Why will it move to a different class — won't it be as large any more?
 * Oops on the grammar, but the realignment is just a move within the same class size to a different division. District 9-5A is division 9 in the 5A class. Every 2 years (biennially) the UIL does this realignment.  No one is ever sure why they make the moves they do; it just happens. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 16:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Cleared this up as well, I hope. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 22:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wildcat marching band: "led the band for twenty-one years and wrote the alma mater". Huh? As in, the beginning of the school anthem...? Please see Alma mater, especially the bit about who will understand this usage.
 * OK, I'll take a look and make whatever changes are needed (after I get some lunch)! &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 16:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * While is correct below, I want the article to be accesible to those who live outside the U.S.  As a sidenote, school song redirects to alma mater.  Perhaps some note should added to the page that the US usage infers the entire song?  Thanks. &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 22:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That's it from me. This is a promising article! Bishonen | talk 16:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC).
 * Alma mater is current usage in the United States for an entire school song, as in "The choir sang the alma mater during the graduation festivities." Applejuicefool 19:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I think the article Alma mater should be edited to reflect this, then, because it doesn't now. And be linked to. Preferably the Wildcat marching band reference to it should be phrased so as to be clear anyway, though — people like to be able to read straight through without having to click on the links. Scm83x, your rewrite of the "Extracurriculars" bit is excellent, you're really good at this process! :-) Bishonen | talk 23:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC).
 * Thanks for the compliment. I got some major prior experience at this previous peer review.  I changed alma mater to school song to reflect more general usage and also made this edit to the alma mater article so that others won't be confused by American usage in the future! &mdash; Scm83x hook 'em 02:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)