Wikipedia:Peer review/Plunketts Creek (Loyalsock Creek)/archive1

Plunketts Creek (Loyalsock Creek)
I am the main contributor to this article and would appreciate any comments, feedback, or suggestions on how to improve it. I will make brief articles to take care of the red links, but thought I could start the peer review process and work on those at the same time. The article follows the WikiProject Rivers guidelines and uses as models Larrys Creek and White Deer Hole Creek, which are both featured articles. I plan to submit this to WP:FAC when the peer review is done. Thanks in advance for your help, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 05:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is remarkable. The amount of research put into the article is quite impressive. The sentence about the general store, gas station and bed and breakfast could be rearranged. The wording is kind of confusing. I am not sure if all three businesses are at one location or if the b and b is independant of the store/ gas station. Dincher 22:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much - I have tweaked the sentence in question and hopefully made it clearer, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Much better. Dincher 23:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Another idea. Could you add a scale to Image:Plunketts Creek Map.PNG ? Dincher 23:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added the scale to the map (may have to WP:BYC to see it). Thanks again, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I have read this article very closely and have not found any errors in spelling or punctuation. My only question is this. What is the name of the source of the stream? It appears to be a good sized pond on the TopoZone maps. I believe that Plunketts Creek is ready to be nominated for FA. Excellent work! Dincher 22:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, APR t 00:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have copyedited it, but will see if I can get another pair of eyes to look it over (only suggestion in this semi-automated peer review). Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I asked Michael Devore to proofread it and he find two typos but no other errors. Any remaining errors are my fault, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, thanks very much for checking this. I have now rechecked every map I used as a reference and none has the pond labeled on it, so I don't know what its name is (and suspect it does not have an official name). I am also embarrased to admit that I never checked where the coordinates of the source are. The PennDOT map of Sullivan County here has two different branches north of the pond named "Plunketts Creek", so I thought that the northernmost and longest one was the branch leading to the source. So the coordinates of what I thought was the source are 41° 27' 30"N, 76° 44' 38"W, see it here on TopoZone USGS topo map. I will tweak the course description to reflect this. I want to write stubs for the redlinks before going to FAC and will also see if I can get a photo of the pond (source) as it is just off the road from Proctor to Hillsgrove. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I have rewritten the beginning of the course section to reflect the USGS GNIS location of the source. I will also have to add the source to the map as the current version does not show it - taken from the Census maps and another reason why I thought that the source was the other branch (as it is shown and the pond is not). Thanks again, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The map is fixed and I am done for the night - thanks again, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the source pond is not visible from the road and the land thereabout is all private and prominently marked with no trespassing signs. Sigh, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 18:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions.
 * The words 'Plunketts Creek' appear 3 times in the first four sentences. On the second occasion this could be replaced with e.g. 'The creek'.
 * Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 'more of these visitors are becoming year-round residents.' Do you really mean that individual tourists are deciding to settle there in measurable numbers (and if so how is this measured?) or that the proportion of tourists to permanent residents is changing?
 * Changed to "Tourism, hunting, and fishing have long been important in the region, and its year-round population is increasing much faster than either county's is." and added comparison to the Sullivan County population (which is declining) in "Decline and renewal" section. The only basis I had for the prior version was the Census data and statements in the newspaper articles. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The word 'coordinates' seems to be too large to fit into the same line as the dash in the infobox. Is this fixable?
 * I tried increasing the map width in the Geobox from 256 px (default) to 300 px. While the map looks better larger, this problem is not fixed (on my computer anyway, using Internet Explorer as my browser). I will ask User:Caroig, who made the Geobox, about this problem. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Name. I think MOS asks that you state Menginnnes (1892) i.e. include the publication date. Ditto Geology.
 * Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Course - The location of the creek relative to (say) Philadelphia (or perhaps Wilkes-Barre might be useful in the lead. I had to click the link to Sullivan County to get my bearings. It might be of interest to know if the relief ratio is typical or not of creeks in the area.
 * I could add a map to the box showing the location of the mouth on a map of Pennsylvania - would this help? Otherwise I will add the location relative to Philadelphia.
 * Either would be useful. BM
 * The relief ratios for Loyalsock Creek and Wallis Run are published and I will add them to the section for comparison. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 12:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The locator map for the mouth and relief ratios for comparison are all now in the article, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Geology. Any idea of the average depth/flow rate? Also, why is this para here and not in 'Course' as it seems to fit in more with the relief ratio rather than the geology.
 * I added two sentences on water depth on Plunketts Creek. They are verifiable, but not based on a published source. Since there is no stream gage, I do not know of any estimate of stream discharge. I have a picture of the creek as a trickle near the mouth, should I link it? In the two other FA stream articles I wrote there was United States Geological Service gage and stream discharge data, so I included it in "Geology" there and here. Should I move relief ratio here? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I would, 'cos I don't think discharge is an essentially geological phenomenon, but its your show. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I moved the paragraph to course (after relief ratio), rearranged Geology a bit (put the names of the mountains up with their composition), and moved the confluence picture up to Course, as that is where the mouth is discussed. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Water Quality - 'gone' is a bit tired - 'departed'? 'most acid rain'. Do you mean the most acidic rain or the highest volume of acid rain? I don't think 'subtributaries' is a British English word.
 * Changed 'gone' to 'departed', clarified that it is the largest amount of acid rain, and 'subtributary' must be one of those words which divide the American and British. Finally, I found some more information on anthrax at the tannery and added that to the article. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Image 'Plunketts Creek in the village of Proctor was once the waste disposal system for a tannery.' Is this an image of the tannery remains or of the creek in the village? It clams to be the latter I think, but I don't see any buildings and the subject matter is very similar to at least three other images. If a picture of a bridge or the creek passing a building or two is impractical, surely an autumn or winter image might provide some variation.
 * It is of the creek in Proctor and there is no trace of the tannery left there. If you look at the images on Commons, there are some of Proctor that I could use instead (the General Store, or a view of the village). I do not have any photos other than in summer, though fall foliage should be possible soon. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Anything that's relevant to rpovide a bit of variety would be welcome, but obviously you can't take out-of-season photos. I presume the creek does not pass through any recognisably inhabited areas.
 * It does, but the creek tends to hug one side of the valley, the roads go down the middle, and the houses tend to be along the road, often on the other side, so getting a good photo of both at once is not easy. There are some places below Proctor where I can at least get a bridge and probably some houses (creek zig zags a bit). I will swap in one of the Proctor pictures for now - I may eventually be able to get a nice shot looking south into the valley from the north on a vista on Burnetts Ridge, but that may take some time. Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Recreation. What species of deer? white tailed deer is clearly stated once in the section. Need it be repeated Dincher 17:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC) Silly me - of course not. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lumber and tannery. 'mills, and, to a lesser extent,'. The comma after 'and' is redundant. I don't like the colon in '$1.75 a day: the employees lived' much either. 'day, the employees living' (followed by 'rented' not 'renting')? 'Sock and Plunketts and Big Bear Creeks" has inconsistent apostrophes.
 * Fixed the first two, thanks. The inconsistent apostrophes are in a direct quote from a newspaper article ('Sock is a colloquialism for Loyalsock). Should I note this somehow? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Sock and Plunketts and Big Bear Creeks" - sorry its fine. My mistake. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Decline and renewal. 'businesses.[33].[37]' Redundant period between refs. I don't know what a 'Proctor Homecoming' might be. 'Today much of Plunketts Creek's watershed is wooded and protected as part of Loyalsock State Forest or Pennsylvania State Game Lands 134'. I don't know what the 134 is for. No. 134? 'Plunketts Creek and its villages have always been a place for lumber and tourism'. I doubt the ghosts of the Susquehannocks would agree. 'the opening weekend of trout season' - missing 'the' before 'trout'?
 * All fixed, thanks. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Refs.
 * No (PDF) after the title in references 1, 2, 16, 27.
 * Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No apostrophes or italics in title in 4, 7, 10,12, 13 et seq.
 * I am dense - these use cite web, should I also use double apostrophes to italicize the titles? Could you please give an example of what you think it is supposed to look like? Thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You know, I wish I could with confidence. CITE and MOS just seem very confused to me, and there seems to be no system if place to provide coherence. Citeweb and CITE contradict one another in some places. However, the system as explained to me by SandyGeorgia (in whom we trust) is that a book or newspaper is italicised, a chapter, journal paper or article is apostrophised. See first ten or so citations at Renewable energy in Scotland and BP Peterhead project for example. However, there is no guarantee that someone in the FAC room will not insist on something else. I notice that our most succesful Scottish editors tend to be historians, who fastidiously avoid web references.
 * All titles in refs are now either italicized or apostrophized. If it makes it through FAC like this I will change the refs in the other streams FA's I work on to this format too, thanks. Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * '[Townships.]' looks odd in 6.
 * Meginness does not include the word "Townships" in the chapter title, so otherwise it would read "Chapter XLII. Plunkett's Creek, Lewis, Cascade, and Gamble". Thanks, Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know why the Townships is needed. My advice would be to go for accuracy rather then clarity.
 * [Townships] has been removed, thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 'URL is to scan of 1892 version with some OCR typos' 'a scan of the 1892'?
 * Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way I went and fixed this in every use of this ref on Wikipedia I could find using Google (dozens and dozens). Good call, thanks again, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 17 - why '19 pages'?
 * It is 19 pages long, I have removed that now. Thanks, Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 20 'Sock Country' might be 'Sock County'
 * No, it is in Lycoming County and Sullivan County. Just newspaper-ese, I guess. Thanks, Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 25 [Archive copy at the Internet Archive Wayback Machine Acid Precipitation] dodgy square brackets
 * The template for the Wayback Machine adds the square brackets, so I can't change it. Thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I added apostrophes to the title to try and clarify what the document is called. It might be better with italics per the above comment.
 * 34 and 35 have commas not periods.
 * I think it is because cite news adds a comma after the title, not a period. Thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you are right - another inconsistency that, in my limited experience, would be quite unacceptable elsewhere.
 * 41 'Llouden, Leslie' Louden?
 * My notes indicate "Llouden" but it is an odd name and I will try to go back and double check it. Thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was "Clouden" and my penmanship is not what it once was - good call, thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 42 no publisher
 * Added the company itself as the publisher (own website), thanks Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for a very detailed review - I will make the corrections and suggested changes as possible and respond to them indvidually above, although that may take a few hours. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I still have to contact Caroig, need to look up "Llouden", and need clarification on the italics or lack thereof in the refs. There are a few other places where I replied but you may still wish for changes, but I think it is nearly all done and thank you again. I have tried to find an image of the Protor Tannery (which would be public domain by now) but have not found anything online. I have found a few more tidbits to add on the name (Hillsgrove Twp in Sullivan County was originally also Plunketts Creek Twp) and railroads (thanks to Choess who found a lumber railroad in the north of the drainage basin), but am done for the day. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks again MacDui for your scrupulous attention to detail here. I will reply to each point above when I make the individual changes, but for now I wanted to say I understand and will make them (and make them in the other Pennsylvania Stream Featured articles when this is done). I think the confusion for me is that I call this character ' an apostrophe or a single quote, and it is also the one which is used to italicize (when doubled). I call this character " a quotation  mark or a double quote, so when you were asking me to "apostrophise" things, I was confused as to what you meant, but it is as clear as the conflicting policies will allow now. I sometimes think we need an editor in chief who would go through and systematically set some basic style and other issues so they were consistent. I do still watch Renewable energy in Scotland and also saw the change there- thanks for that. Ruhrfisch  <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 14:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree about the editor in chief - or a committee of some sort. Good luck with the FA. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC) PS have a look at Template talk:Cite web if you want a good example of the citation confusion.
 * Thanks again for everyone's input, I am submitting this to WP:FAC next. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)