Wikipedia:Peer review/Plymouth/archive3

Plymouth

 * Previous peer review
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for November 2008.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for November 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I want it to be listed as GA status. I feel that the peer review will outline any major areas for improvement, thus making the GA nomination easier. I felt that the culture section is the worst as I'm not entirely sure on how to define culture. If you could tell me which section the improvements are located in, that would be really helpful.

Thanks, Sam Davidson (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is looking good, but below a few questions/comments which may help with GA review:


 * In the lede should United States of America, France and Spain be wikilinked?
 * Nope, there was a bot that removed them and quite rightly, as they're common names. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Should World War II be wikilinked in the lede?
 * Matter of opinion I suppose, but as you raised the matter, I wikilinked it. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Some reviewers may want refs in the lede - particularly for the population figure & the claim "largest operational naval base in Western Europe"
 * I haven't done so as it's all referenced later on (in Demography and Economy). Plus it looks a bit odd to see one dotted in there. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Where is the reference to support the claim that "HMNB Devonport is the largest operational naval base in Western Europe"?&mdash; Rod talk 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The URL is here. The inline citation is located in the caption of the picture of HMNB Devonport in the section on economy. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 20:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The university is mentioned in the lede, but not named or wikilinked
 * Done. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Early History "soon silted up" can you be more specific in geological terms "soon" could be anything
 * NOT DONE. This is proving dificult. I'll try to find some reliable sources for this later. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What is a "back-formation"? or is that just me being ignorant?
 * Nope, I've never heard of it. Smalljim added, so I'll leave this for him.
 * Back formation is a wikipedia page that explains the idea. Back formation in the case of Plymouth is that it is the mouth of the Plym, a river named after its town, Plympton, on the assumption that the town was named after the river, Plym-ton - when in fact the town was named after plums.  The river's current name is a back formation, I am unaware of its older name - and indeed it's possible any older name was lost. Stevebritgimp (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In fact forget that - Duncanhill has beaten me to it by about a week - late to the party. Thanks for the review. Stevebritgimp (talk) 18:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Early defence and Renaissance Royal Citadel is mentioned but not linked to Royal Citadel, Plymouth until the 2nd occurrence
 * Fixed. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure about "their time" as 16th century has already been included
 * Moved the sentence about wool to the top. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Naval power Why is the text "Royal Dockyard" used as the link to HMNB Devonport? I found this confusing as there are other royal dockyards.
 * Changed to HMNB Devonport. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Does the "Three towns" need a little explanation in the article rather than making the reader follow the link?
 * Changed to "The Three Towns conurbation of Plymouth, Stonehouse and Devonport...". 64.18.144.131 (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The 2nd para in naval power isn't really anything to do with the navy
 * Changed sub-section title to "Naval power, docks and Foulston". 64.18.144.131 (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Local Govt history Three towns is linked for a 2nd time
 * On WPUKGEO's advice page, it says that "A word only needs to be wikilinked once within each section." 64.18.144.131 (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Should "Devon County Council" be wikilinked?
 * No, as there isn't an article about it. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Devon County Council" redirects to Devon_County_Council.&mdash; Rod talk 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 22:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In City Council how can a non event (election) coincide with something else?
 * Changed to which is when County Council elections take place. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 23:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there a more recent figure for electorate than 2003?
 * Yep, found some from 2007 and added it. 64.18.144.131 (talk) 23:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "granted the dignity of Lord Mayor" is a strange phrase - does it have specific meaning?
 * Yes, I've changed it to "Since 6 May 1935 Plymouth has been granted the dignity of Lord Mayor by the King on the recommendation of the Home Secretary, which is elected each year on the third Friday of May by a group of six people." Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the phrase "granted the dignity" I was querying can dignity be granted?&mdash; Rod talk 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't make any sense to me. I've removed the word "dignity". Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand "political alias" - ? allegiance - this whole sentance could do with a rewrite
 * Done. 209.34.168.36 (talk) 18:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "become the centre of a controversy as the council disagrees" - what about - I don't understand
 * Done. 209.34.168.36 (talk) 18:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Geography "Plymouth Sound" is wikilinked twice
 * Removed second wikilink and there was a dupe on limestone too. 209.34.168.36 (talk) 19:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In geology you might want one of those links to go to Devonian
 * Done. 209.34.168.36 (talk) 19:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Economy does 10% come from the dockyard or from nuclear submarines?
 * From the dockyard. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What is "a pannier market"?
 * It means a "basket market". Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Tinside pool could be referenced to IoE record (a search of IoE would also show some Grade I listed buildings which are not included in the article)
 * It's already referenced to a reliable source, so I see no need. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I've run out of time now - but will do more later if useful. &mdash; Rod talk 09:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * A few more comments:


 * In Demography there are some abbreviations eg GVA which should be written in full or explained
 * Written out in full. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 2001 census is linked twice in the same para
 * Removed second wikilink. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Transport Pont Aven is mentioned in a picture caption (ferry) but not mentioned in the text - should this be Pont-Aven?
 * No, because that's a settlement. I linked it to MV Pont-Aven, as well as MV Bretagne within the text. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 21:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Education why is Plymouth College "most notable"?
 * It isn't and the sentence also indicates that it is a grammar school, which it isn't. I've changed it accordingly. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The first sentence in that section "Plymouth is home to the 11th largest university in the United Kingdom (excluding the Open University) — the University of Plymouth." could be reworded for clarity eg "the University of Plymouth is the 11th largest university in the United Kingdom (excluding the Open University)"
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Re: Plymouth Marine Laboratory, .. who study the area for scientific research. Is that the local area or the subject area?
 * I don't know. The reference doesn't support any information about it and their website never actualy says what they do. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In religion you might want to use this ref for the grade II* listed status of the synagogue as it is independent of the institution & ref 102 doesn't take you directly to that info
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In sports what makes Plymouth Albion R.F.C. and the Plymouth Raiders more notable than the other clubs mentioned?
 * I don't know, so I've removed the word "notable". Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 15:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The sentence "Plymouth Raiders play in the top tier of British basketball, the British Basketball League. They play at the Plymouth Pavilions, along with many other sports clubs and were founded in 1983" might need looking at for clarity are the other clubs founded in 1983?
 * No, just Plymouth Raiders. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 15:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In culture - I'm not sure "kicking-out time" would be recognised as a phrase outside the UK
 * Changed to closing hours. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 15:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Is the Palace Theatre mentioned in the text the same as the New Palace Theatre of the picture caption?
 * Yes, all the references suggest it's called Palace Theatre, so changed the caption. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 15:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Beryl Cook & Robert Lenkiewicz appear (with the same text) in both culture & notable people
 * Removed from culture. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 15:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In public services Are EDF & British Gas monopolies in Plymouth - elsewhere in the UK you can purchase gas & electricity from a variety of providers
 * No — removed. I don't know what the hell I was doing, when I wrote this sentence. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Should Crown Court & County Court be wikilinked?
 * Yes, done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In notable people should alittle more explanation of the term Janner be included in the article?
 * Yes, done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Why was Robert Lenkiewicz controversial?
 * Because his paintings looked at themes such as: vagrancy, sexual behaviour and suicide. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Should Plymouth Sound be in geography rather than Landmarks?
 * Yes, it is aleady written about in geography, so I just removed it from landmarks. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope these comments are helpful.&mdash; Rod talk 17:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your thorough review. I swear you and Jza84 are brothers. I have just finished going through all the issues you have raised for this article. I still haven't found a reiable source stating how long it took for the river to silt up, but I was wondering if this will affect its chance of becoming a GA? Not to mention the problem raised with Plymouth Marine Laboratory. In paragrph eight of this source, it seems to be around the 14th century, which would mean that the section on the silting should be moved from "early history". Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nominator's reply
 * I think you have done a really good job of improving the article & I would urge you to nominate it for GA. While you are waiting for that there are a few other (minor) things you might want to look at:


 * In the lede, the sentence "Plymouth's economy is still strongly influenced by shipbuilding, but has, since the 1990s, become a more service-based economy with the 11th largest university in the United Kingdom, the University of Plymouth." might do with a tweak for clarity.
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Early defence and Renaissance "A series of fortifications were built in the Tudor and Elizabethan era" - should era be plural?
 * Yes, done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "Plymouth was the home port for successful maritime traders, among them Sir John Hawkins, who led England's first foray into the Atlantic slave trade,[13] as well as Sir Francis Drake, who, according to legend, insisted on completing his game of bowls on the Hoe before engaging the Spanish Armada in 1588." is a long sentence which I would split into 2.
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "besieged for almost four years by the Royalists." but you don't say whether this was successful
 * Done and added some more information about the civil war. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In 20th century is the "1943 plan" the same as that by Sir Patrick Abercrombie? - this is answered in Geography but unclear earlier
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 19:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Why more Royal Marines - we haven't heard about them before why not just the Royal Marines?
 * Done. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 19:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Local government history the first sentence "Plymouth's first recording of existence was in the Domesday Book in 1086 as Sudtone" could be reworded for clarity ? "The first record of the existence of Plymouth was in the..." - how is this different to the bit from Early History "first mentioned in a Pipe Roll of 1211"
 * The Pipe Roll was the first mention of the word Plymouth. The settlement of Plymouth was originaly called Sutton. Sudtone was first recorded in 1086. Tis the season to be jolly (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a big jump from 1439 to 1914 - how was it governed in between?
 * It had a Mayor (not a Lord Mayor).  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "A provisional order was made on 2 May 1914, to come into effect in November" - does this relate to the three towns? as, at the moment, it doesn't really say anything.
 * I've removed it.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We have "The city's first Lord Mayor was appointed in 1935" in Local Govt history & then in City Council we get "Since 6 May 1935 Plymouth has been granted a Lord Mayor by the King..." perhaps it should just be in one or the other?
 * I've removed the dates from City Council, but still mentioned that Plymouth has a Lord Mayor.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Similarly in Local govt hist we learn "As of 2009 or 2010, the next general election, the..." & later in City Council find out about the current MPs - I would put these together, probably in Local govt hist, rather than separating them
 * There were actualy both in City Council, but in different paragraphs, so I've moved all information about Parliament representatives to History.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * for layout I might swap Image:Great Hall - Plymouth Guildhall.jpg to the left & Image:Plymouth Civic Centre.jpg to the right - but it might just be my screen
 * Done. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Is it worth mentioning in Geography that Plymouth Sound Shores And Cliffs are an SSSI? (although we do not have an article for it) - for help with this one see and .&mdash; Rod talk 17:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I take it that you've seen my sandbox then? Jolly Janner (talk) 19:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep & I've done all at List of SSSIs in Somerset & most at List of SSSIs in Avon & looked at List of SSSIs in Devon which is where I spotted Plymouth Sound Shores And Cliffs.&mdash; Rod talk 19:41, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd better not comment on the climate sections as I think I originally wrote it!
 * When I first began work on this article it contained most of the inline citations. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The Theatre Royal is first wikilinked in Plymouth 2020 (and again in Culture) but was not linked in Naval power, docks and Foulston
 * Done. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Transport you could remove the brackets in "Plymouth railway station (opened in 1877)" & make it "Plymouth railway station, which opened in 1877, is managed..."
 * Done. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The 3,000 staff & 30,000 students of the university are in numbers in Education & in text in Economy
 * Swapped. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "Polytechnic South West as (The..." does read right, possibly as could be replaced by following eg "It was founded in 1992 from Polytechnic South West following The Further and Higher Education Act 1992."
 * Done. Jolly Janner (talk) 17:54, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Sport when did Plymouth United F.C. cease to exist? and is it Plymouth United F.C. or Plymouth Argyle Football Club, which is linked with "English non-conformists that left Plymouth..."?
 * I've removed the sentence about Plymouth United, as they aren't very notable and tend to go in and out of professional football.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In Notable People the article says Drake had a Leat, a Shopping Centre and an Island named after him but we have a picture caption saying "Unloading mail by hand from the Sir Francis Drake at Millbay Docks, March 1926" so there must be a boat as well
 * There are probably hundreds of boats named after him, but I've added a link to HMS Drake, which includes 19 warships named after him. The one in the picture isn't included in the list. Jolly Janner (talk) 14:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In landmarks why is the Plymouth Naval war memorial most notable?
 * I don't know. I've removed that statement. Jolly Janner (talk) 14:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting really picky now & most of the issues above would only be a problem at FA rather than GA but I offer them for your consideration in the hope that they are helpful. Good luck with the GA nomination.&mdash; Rod talk 16:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done for the edits from this - but someone may need to close it as I remember a rule which says the GA review can't be done if there is a PR ongoing.&mdash; Rod talk 19:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)