Wikipedia:Peer review/Psycho (1960 film)/archive1

Psycho (1960 film)
This was the recent Cinema Colaboration of the Week, and has improved tremendously, mostly thanks to two dedicated users who worked away at the article tirelessly (I only made a few contributions here or there). Now that the CCOTW is over for this article, I thought I'd nominate it for general peer review to see if there's anything we missed, and to get some "outsider" opinions. Thanks, Green451 22:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Overall, it's a very good and informative article; the users clearly put a lot of time into it. So the only issues I have with the article are really quibbles.  The article seems at times to veer into too much detail; one that caught my eye especially was the reference to where the sets were located in the Pre-production section.  There is a reference to WikiMapia there with exact coordinates, which I think is superfluous, as well as a reference to the sets being used to film the Phantom of the Opera – is that information really necessary?
 * Also, the Interpretation section stuck out because the rest of the sections are incredibly detailed while it's short and reads like a list. It probably needs to be rewritten in better prose form.  There are also many references to Psycho's greatness.  While I'm not about to argue with that distinction, by Wikipedia's NPOV policy, the facts should be allowed to speak for themselves, so Psycho's greatness should probably be directly mentioned in only the lead section.  The opening paragraph for Popular Culture, for this reason, should be edited to be more neutral and less repetitive such as, say, "As one of Hitchcock's most analyzed films, Psycho has frequently been referenced and spoofed in the popular media, especially the shower scene, complete with shrieking violins."
 * The reason it reads like a list is because it is a list in the book. I tried, unsuccessfully, to convert it.--Supernumerary 07:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The article also might need style editing, although I kind of skimmed over it, so I don't know how much needs to be gone over.
 * That's pretty much I can think of for this article. As I said before, it's an excellent article, but hey, even excellent articles have room for improvement.  I hope this helps. Breed Zona 05:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, AZ t 21:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

From SG
I started to review this article, and the first thing I encountered was the absurd tag from WikiProject Extra-Long Article Committee. Since the article has only 38 KB prose (something the committee members don't seem to be calculating), I removed the tag. It has been reinstated. Good luck trying to write a well-cited article in under 30KB overall, as this committee wants. I guess you're stalled for now. If that gets resolved, I'll be glad to review, since it seems to be a well-referenced article. Sandy (Talk) 09:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be resolved: I spent some time in the article, making adjustments for WP:LAYOUT, WP:MOS and footnote placement per WP:FN - where to place footnotes. I also consolidated some of the references, used more named refs, and removed some of the cite templates just to show how awkward they are (they result in irregular punctuation) and how much they chunk up the size. (Several of the templates were wrong: when you use cite web for a news source, the formatting comes out wrong - cite news should be used.  Those all need to be checked.)

That's everything I saw in terms of article structure. On prose: Good luck !! Sandy (Talk) 02:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In terms of size, I don't believe it's an issue, but the non-encyclopedic sections are an issue on FAC, and if they are spun off to a daughter article, that should resolve any size questions. The trivia and popular culture sections (trivia by definition is not encyclopedic) could be written into a daughter article, and linked back to the main article via summary style.  If those sections stay in the article, they'll have to be significantly rewritten before approaching WP:FAC. Sequels and remakes could also be a separate article, if needed.  Other than that, the size doesn't seem to be a problem.  (And if you convert the rest of the cite templates, as I started doing, you'll probably lose 2 more KB, on top of the 2KB I already lost.)
 * Under Sequels and remakes, there's a strange placement of a Further template: those usually go at the top of the section.
 * In pre-production, not sure map is needed: California and are a regular attraction on the studio's tour - see WikiMapia {Coordinates: 34°8'12"N 118°20'48"W}.[17]
 * See WP:LEAD - the lead should be a compelling, 3-paragraph summary of the article - it could use some work.
 * The lead isn't brilliant - the first two sentences are kinda boring, stubby, factual sentences that don't intrigue and draw in the reader. Why is Shower Scene capitalized?  There's a typo in the second paragraph of the lead, indicating the need for a serious copyedit of the entire article before approaching FAC
 * Today it is regarded as one of Hitchcock's best films and highly praised as a work of cinematic art by international critics, Psycho is also acclaimed as one of the most effective horror films.
 * At the end of the WP:WIAFA you'll find links to helpful tips, as well as to Tony's exercises to reducing redundancy in the text.
 * Moving on, the first text in the article body is not compellingly written:
 * The movie opens on discreet lovers Marion Crane (Leigh) and Sam Loomis (Gavin). Until Sam's finances improve, the two cannot marry.
 * Working on prose and grammar aren't my strong points, but after all the basics are cleaned up and several of the regular editors have followed all of the prose advice on the WIAFA page, I suggest you all seek an uninvolved copyeditor to run through the entire prose.


 * Well done on the improvements. There are a couple of list heavy sections that should be turned into prose. The 'trivia' section should be dispatched to the bottom of a very deep swamp. Much of what is in there can be located elsewhere in the article. The JPS talk to me  22:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the article has some very good things and I'd love to see it made even better - it's a logical candidate for FAC at some point in the future. Well done on all the work done so far. These are my concerns:
 * the overall writing is good but needs a thorough copy edit. There are examples of repetition.  eg. the word "jovial" is used twice in one paragraph.  I'll go through as time permits but the more people reading and re-reading the article, the better.
 * the lead paragraph needs to be rewritten. The sentence ""The Shower Scene" has been studied, discussed, and referenced countless times in books, articles, and film courses with debate focusing on why it is so terrifying and how it was produced, including how it passed the censors and who directed it" is long and confusing.  The lead section should be a summary of the article and I don't think it is.  I don't think it's going to be difficult to fix, but the article should be fixed first and then the lead should be easy to adapt based on how the article reads in its "complete" state.
 * some POV issues. Describing the film as terrifying is fine when attributed, but it is mentioned without attribution in the article.  This can be easily fixed and is but one example.
 * From "Production" - "There are many stories about the making of the film, so it is not always easy to distinguish fact from legend." Should be removed.  We should be aiming to write a definitive, authoritative article, so prefacing a section with this kind of comment makes it appear that we are unsure of the facts.  This is wrong - a lot of factual information is sourced, and even "legends" and "rumours" can be discussed correctly with sources.  We can do this confidently, so the sentence can and should be removed.
 * It's always bothered me, and I agree with you. It's been removed.--Supernumerary 04:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are too many examples of side comments being made in parenthesis. Most can be easily absorbed into the main text.  The rest should be considered as trivial and removed.
 * Some of the images show no source. I think this needs to be addressed before they get deleted, because they do meet the "speedy deletion" criteria as they currently stand.  The fair use rationales could possibly be tightened and made more specific, but establishing the source is crucial.
 * I've contacted the uploader about sources. I'll see what I can do about the rationales.--Supernumerary 04:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look at the rationales too as time permits. That's easy enough to sort out, but finding out where the images came from may not be so easy.  I strongly feel that each rationale should be unique in that it should address why each particular image is individually relevant.  Rossrs 09:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * From "Reception" - "Initial reviews of the film were mixed with about 60% of them negative." This is attributed to a Janet Leigh piece that I have not read, so I don't know in what context she made the comment.  Was she quoting from some clearly defined statistic or was she pulling a number out of the air?  Either way, the 60% figure is presented as a fact, and I would dispute that because it looks more like Leigh's opinion.   Unless Janet Leigh was taking the figure from some kind of raw data, I don't think she is a reliable source in this regard.  Furthermore I think it's far preferable to demonstrate the initial mixed reviews without necessarily providing a percentage figure.
 * She wasn't quoting from a source, but was just pulling number out of thin air.--Supernumerary 04:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The lists about various AFI surveys and websites, should be converted into prose. I think it could be more selective.  If it's number one on a particular list that's noteworthy and supports the statement that it's held in high regard.  Stating that a quote is number 56 on a list, tells us nothing except that there are 55 other quotes out there that are "better".  Keep only the noteworthy ones or rewrite it to address and demonstrate the film's overall notability rather than just give placings from a series of random lists and surveys.
 * I think the "Innovation in film" section should be absorbed into the "Production" section as it is kind of disjointed having a seperate section. Was this intentional?  I ask because of the "spoiler" tag.   A spoiler for this is redundant anyhow as there is a very large, detailed "shower scene" section which does not have a "spoiler tag".   "Interpretation" section could be absorbed into filming or preproduction, as all of the comments seem to relate to Hitchcock's intent rather than to external critics analysis of the film, (which would be great, BTW),  unless I'm misinterpreting Janet Leigh as a reference - once again, where is she getting her info from?  It's presented in the article as a Wikipedia fact rather than attributing it to someone's interpretation.  I've read similar interpretations of these scenes, particularly the bird references, attributed directly to Hitchcock and Stefano, so it's there right from the planning stage.  If it was an external critique it would probably sit better as a subheader under "Reception".  Perhaps "Reaction" would be a more all-encompassing header to put these points under as subheaders.
 * The interpretation section is taken entirely from Leigh's book. I personally think this article needs to incorporate more sources, as I wrote most of it using just Leigh because it was quick and easy. I started in on a much heavier book, but ran out of time and will to finish it.--Supernumerary 04:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be interesting to convey a few different interpretations, but wouldn't it be interesting if there were notable people who agreed on interpretations. Rossrs 09:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Pop culture references should be delistified. Rossrs 01:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)