Wikipedia:Peer review/Red panda/archive1

Red panda
I've listed this article for peer review because it has gone through a revision and we hope to bring it to FAC.

Thanks, LittleJerry (talk) 20:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm currently copyediting the article. If you have objections or questions, you can ping me here or on the talk page. Wretchskull (talk) 21:15, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reading and copyediting ! – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:48, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Femke
Had a first look at units and numbers
 * Is there a reason to use mm rather than cm in the lede? Cm is the unit I would expect even in scientific literature. The conversion to US units is inconsistent between lede/body. I'd go for 2 significant digits in both locations
 * Changed to cm – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * −1 to 28.9 °C -> weird that the precision is so widely different between both extremes. Do we really know the upper value better than the lower value?
 * I checked the source again : range − 1 to 28.9 °C is stated in section on study area. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Always difficult when sources deal with numbers in an iffy way. I'd round it to two significant digits, so that the Fahrenheit doesn't have false precision. Femke (talk) 16:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * 34.86–53% and 36.18–48.16% -> seems to be an average of values in that paper? If so, it needs to be reduced to two significant digits, but please double check where these numbers come from. They're not directly in the paper as far as I can tell.
 * I can neither make out those figures in the article. LittleJerry? – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:25, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Removed. I got the numbers from the Glatson (2021) book describing the findings of that study (page 334). Now I don't know how they got them. LittleJerry (talk) 21:49, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The original has some percentages, so we can e.g. write : ... RP consumed 40–83% maling, 51–91.2% aristata supplemented by strigosa, bamboo shoots and seasonal berries. How's that? – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:58, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. LittleJerry (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Changed. And I also amended the refs in the efn as suggested on the The Plant List : Version 1.1 has been superseded and should no longer be used. ... referring to World Flora Online. – BhagyaMani (talk) 06:35, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I find the many numbers in Distribution and habitat distracting. Is it necessary to convert each SI unit to US customary? Per MOS:CONVERSIONS, I'm not sure it's necessary. Femke (talk) 20:15, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I used cvt as a standard for all. Which ones do you think should NOT be converted? – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:14, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The primary problem of this section is the density of numbers and blue text, which makes it difficult to read. It's not engaging. There are a lot of possible solutions here, you may need multiple
 * Only convert the first mention of each unit in the article
 * Convert some numbers to percentages (this can be done in the first paragraph of distribution and habitat for instance), omitting both km and mi
 * Put some of the numbers in graphs or tables
 * Omit numbers
 * If you like footnotes, move some numbers into them. Femke (talk) 17:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you think of this solution re the first paragraph: leaving the total in text and moving details to a table ?? – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I can then add another column for elevations in each country and also move them to the table, mentioning only lowest to highest records in each country. How's that? – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

, I agree with Femke. I think we could reduce the section some. Have the first paragraph give an overview of its geographic distribution (including national parks). The next paragraph(s) can be on macro-habitat and microhabitats. We could just give the maximum elevation they are found in and remove rainfall and temperature numbers. I could edit it in my sandbox and show you what I mean and get your feedback. LittleJerry (talk) 18:59, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I liked Femke's suggestion to move figures into a table and think this one with 3 columns provides a quick overview. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think a 2-column table could work, but I think LittleJerry's idea may be more engaging. A 3-column table becomes a 5-column table with all those conversion to US units, making it again difficult to parse. Femke (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And don't think we should have a column. We don't need to give the square km of habitat or the temperature, rainfall or elevations for each country. It's too much number dumping and difficult to read. Why not write it like Indian roller. LittleJerry (talk) 21:14, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Here's how we should do it. LittleJerry (talk) 21:26, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 1. Start with the current lead paragraph. It summarizes the geographic range well.
 * 2. Second paragraph should be on habitat. Start with a general overview of the species habitat (one or two sentences) and then get into the local examples.
 * 3. End with a short paragraph on the microhabitats.

How about this? I think the last sentence could be added to the conservation section. LittleJerry (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll work on this later today. – BhagyaMani (talk) 10:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for creating a bit of a mess in between with all the shifting of statements + refs. I outcommented all the protected areas and suggest to move them into a 2-column collapsible table into the section *Conservation*. Would that find your consent? – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll work a bit more on microhabitats in the 3rd paragraph of this section. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The head-to-tail length has very little variation compared to the weight in the lede. Are both numbers spanning both (sub)species? Other tertiary sources typically have a lower upper end for weight (between 7 and 9 kg). Are they all wrong / only referring to the Himalayan (sub)species? Femke (talk) 17:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That's how the source frames it. LittleJerry (talk) 23:01, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Are there other equally high-quality sources? Do they say this too? Femke (talk) 17:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't see the big deal. Animals can be similar in length and one weigh more the the other. I prefer using the current source since it is more recent. LittleJerry (talk) 23:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Now looking at how easy it is to understand for a non-expert, focussing on the lede (WP:MTAU).
 * The first sentence is confusing. At first I thought the panda was a carnivore, and that carnivoran is simply the adjective form of that word. The jargon already occurs in the infobox, no need to repeat in such a prominent place. Just say mammal.
 * done – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:16, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The phylogeny of the red panda has been debated -> I don't think this clause is necessary. If it is, replace the word phylogeny with non-jargon.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The earliest fossil record of the genus Ailurus dates to the Pleistocene, but the family Ailuridae had already evolved about 25 to 18 million years ago as indicated by extinct fossil relatives found in Europe and North America. -> Slightly confusing as most readers will not know when the Pleistocene was
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * coniferous and temperate broadleaf and mixed forests -> three times and.. If the mixed means mixed between coniferous and broadleaf, I suggest removing it
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I still see two ands in the lede.. Femke (talk) 17:04, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 18:00, 11 February 2022 (UTC)


 * As the wild population is estimated at fewer than 10,000 mature individuals with a declining trend, it has been listed as Endangered on the IUCN Red List since 2015. -> Can this be improved? Long sentence which lacks flow.
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:29, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * In English, the red panda was formerly known simply as "panda" until after 1869 with the discovery of the giant panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca), so named for its perceived resemblance to the red panda. Overly long sentence, with poor flow. Something like "In English, the red panda was formerly known simply as "panda" until 1869 when the giant panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca) was discovered. It was named giant panda for its resemblance to the red panda.
 * A few years ago I traced the travels of Alfred Duvaucel who sent the first panda specimen to Paris 200 years ago when he was posted some way north of Kolkata. He had hired several hunters who kept bringing him wildlife, and his menagerie was always full of drying skins, feathers and cages with live animals. I imagine that when a hunter brought him a panda, he pointed to its feet asking "what is this". And the hunter replied in his native language: "pajā he"; i.e. this is a paw. So its name is based on a misunderstanding! – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Link specific epithet Femke (talk) 17:17, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * done – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to have two photos next to each other displaying the difference between the two (sub)species? Femke (talk) 17:20, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I checked photos at commons: there is none taken in the wild in China. This one File:Ailurus fulgens Chengdu 20140325.jpg shows an individual in a Chinese zoo, which is no guarantee that it is a styani. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The German Wikipedia does show the difference between the two (sub)species... I think it really adds value, but of course identification needs to be absolutely clear. Not entirely sure what the policy here is. (If you think this is too much OR, you could always ask an expert to write a blog with Commons images..) Femke (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This is the same photo as ↑ file. And I do indeed think, that whoever added it there, only assumes that it shows a styani. But you can never know for sure with captive ones, as zoos have been exchanging pandas for decades !! – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:41, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

accessibility review:
 * Lang templates are in use :)
 * WP:DONTHIDE: tables shouldn't be collapsed on loading the article
 * MOS:ALT: Most images are missing alts. If the caption is sufficient, type refer to caption. Femke (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not going to do a full review, as I would like to use my little energy for some writing myself. So one last paragraph that caught my eye for jargon: Diseases is full of jargon, and lacks background because it contains too many primary sources rather than secondary sources.
 * This Chapter gives a broad overview, but is relatively old (2011). Maybe there is a more modern overview in the introduction of more modern sources.
 * I'd like to see answers to questions like these:
 * Do they carry a lot of diseases compared to other animals?
 * I'm not sure why that's relevant. LittleJerry (talk) 18:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's just an example of the type of information one may find in an overview source/secondary source. I think the section goes into details without covering the basics. Femke (talk) 18:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I collated the articles on diseases: but the 3 about the parasites in scat of wild red pandas were all I found. There are a few more about diseases and post mortems of captive ones, but by far most about individual cases. I think it not relevant to add : one panda in xx zoo died of Tyzzer's disease. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * To partially answer my own question, the 2011 chapter says: "It has been observed that red pandas have “few species specific [disease] peculiarities”". So no, they're quite normal.
 * I agree it's not relevant to talk about individual pandas: I would like more general information. I don't know whether it's true, but something like. It is difficult to study diseases in wild pandas as they are difficult to catch. Diseases of wild pandas are instead often researched using fecal matter, which may contain parasites. The first paragraphs doesn't mention if these protozao are parasites, or how they are related to disease. Scat/Faecal is jargon, so should have a link. Femke (talk) 19:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Nobody would catch a wild red panda to open its gut and look for parasites. These times are long over. What is done before radio-collaring individuals, these are health-checked, i.e. perhaps some blood samples taken for lab analysis. – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:11, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You do understand my point right? I'd like the first sentence(s) to be more general. It could also be something like: there is high mortality among young pandas, blah blah blah. Or if you want to start with poo, "Faecal samples not only contain information about food, but also about illnesses carried by animals". The text does not make clear what biological function these " protozoa, amoebozoans, roundworms, trematodes and tapeworms." have. Are they symbiotic, parasitic, bit of both, or do we not know? Femke (talk) 09:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If any article on mortality due to diseases of wild red panda cubs or subadults in 2 or more sites had been published, we would have added this. In the late 1980s, Yonzon put forward the idea that cattle grazing might have an impact on survival rate of cubs in his PhD research site. But nobody seems to have focused on the aspect of *parasite transmission as reason for mortality* ever since in any other survey site. As LittleJerry already pointed out below: statistics are available for mortality reasons and rates of captive cubs, but this would better fit in the section on captive management, imo. – BhagyaMani (talk) 10:08, 13 February 2022 (UTC); added – BhagyaMani (talk) 10:12, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In a review of research trends on red panda, Karki et al. (2021) basically confirm what I wrote above: The dearth of studies on the disease aspect of wild red pandas necessitates .. investigation for proper health care management .. to prevent the possible infections they contract or transmit. – BhagyaMani (talk) 10:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Something like that would also be a good introductory sentence. Femke (talk) 17:05, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * What diseases are they particularly vulnerable too?
 * Is there a difference between captive and wild red pandas?
 * Most studies are on captive populations. LittleJerry (talk) 18:08, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that may be relevant to mention. Femke (talk) 18:49, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Are the Latin name of any of those species relevant? To me it reads like Chinese. This is exacerbated by the fact that hovering over these names leads you to a poorly jargon-filled first sentences. Similarly, why use the unknown word dermatophytosis when you can say something like 'ringworm, a fungal infection of the skin'. Femke (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Many of these species don't have common names. LittleJerry (talk) 18:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Better question then: are the exact species relevant? Or is it typically sufficient to indicate what type of disease the pandas have? Like pneumonia, genetic diseases, heat stress. Those are things non-specialist readers will understand. The secondary source I linked also describes it in that way. Femke (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the article can use another pair of non-biologist eyes. Femke (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

HF
Won't be immediate, but I can look at this as a non-biologist soon. Hog Farm Talk 16:55, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay.


 * "The analysed samples showed high levels of population structure across the red panda's range." - what is population structure? That's not a term familiar to a non-biologist or zoologist.
 * Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 05:17, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * "The author of the study considered the red panda to be more closely related to bears" - awkward phrasing, it's not clear from the previous wording that "In the 1980s, examinations of the dental and cranial similarities and differences between the red panda and the giant panda" is only a single study
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * "these ancient pandas are likely omnivores" - not sure that the present tense is great for something that's been extinct for ages
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * " for two years consumed 40–83% Yushania maling and 51–91.2% Thamnocalamus spathiflorus bamboos" - is this percent of diet? It's not entirely clear
 * Yes, percent of diet. LittleJerry (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Any idea what the lifespan in the wild is?
 * No; nobody carried out such long-term monitoring of individuals. – BhagyaMani (talk) 04:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't done any extensive source-text integrity checks, but none of the sources look problematic in themselves
 * File:AilurusFulgensSmit.jpg needs some sort of tag indicating why it is the public domain in the US, besides the general one (PD-us-expired would work if the book it was in was ever printed in the US before 1927)
 * Added. LittleJerry (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

This one appears to be in good shape to my non-expert eye. Hog Farm Talk 04:20, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments! – BhagyaMani (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2022 (UTC)